Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd October 2019, 10:13 AM   #1
Hombre
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 132
Default Opinions about this Gunong

I should really appreciate opinions about this Gunong....
I can understand it is hard because I only have these two pictures for the moment but any opinions at all should b very much appreciated.

Best,
Stefan
Attached Images
  
Hombre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2019, 02:26 PM   #2
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,694
Default

I'm going to defer until you have better pictures. In particular, I would like to see close-ups of the hilt and guard.

However, my best guess with these inadequate pictures is that this gunong is not very old.

Ian
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2019, 08:29 PM   #3
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,890
Default

I would also like to see better photos. But the pommel gives the impression that it might be Tridnaca (giant clam shell).
Can you tell what the metal is on the sheath. Aluminum would place this as Post WWII i think. Regardless, it is an attractive gunong no matter the age.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2019, 11:30 PM   #4
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,440
Smile

Hello Stefan,

The blade doesn't look too bad IMVHO...

And possibly the pommel if David is onto something: Tridacna. (Just make sure it's not plastic! )

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2019, 04:20 AM   #5
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,182
Default

Hello Stefan,
Like everyone else I would like to see a few better quality photos of your new gunong. To me the fittings do not look to be made from aluminum because of the oxidation shown in the first photo you posted, but could possibly be nickel silver or white brass instead. The hilt does however appear to be made of Tridacna shell as suggested by both David and Kai. The groove down the center of the blade I have only seen on blades dating from the 1920's and upward. If I had to guess on the age of this piece I would say second quarter of the 20th century. Better photos will help you to get more precise information from those more knowledgeable on these daggers than I am.

Best,
Robert
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2019, 04:36 PM   #6
Hombre
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 132
Default

Thank you so very much for your opinions, guys! I really appreciate it!
I will post better pictures of it when I have it in my hands.

Best,
Stefan
Hombre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th October 2019, 04:01 PM   #7
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,694
Default

Hi Stefan:

I'm looking at this gunong and the other blade that you posted here at the same time, the Espada Maranao, and it looks to me that these were probably made in the same place and at roughly the same time. Both seem to have the same very white material for the hilts (which David has identified as probably coming from a giant clam), and the scabbards appear to be constructed similarly from what looks to me to be mango wood. The white metal is probably white brass or similar alloy IMHO.

If so, then your gunong would be a recent Maranao product. Hilts made from this very white material (from the giant clam, Tridacna) seem to have appeared in the last 2030 years, and may be a replacement for ivory, which has become more expensive and harder to obtain with the implementation of international treaties banning ivory use. Mango wood is an inexpensive hardwood that seems to be used more frequently in sheaths during the last 30 or so years.

Did you get these two from the same seller?

Ian
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2019, 05:38 PM   #8
Hombre
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 132
Default

Thank you, Ian! I really appreciate your thoughts!

Yes, they are from the same seller.... His father was working in the Philippines for 7 years, around 1970 and forward so to speak.....
Like everyone else I also would like to collect old nice blades and the funny thing is that the blade this guy was intending to throw away was the best among his blades.... The Moro Kris Kalis.... I wonder how many interesting blades are just thrown away because people think it is only junk....

Best,
Stefan

Show the Moro Kris Kalis again.... Shall follow the advice I got with the blade....
Attached Images
 
Hombre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2019, 09:53 PM   #9
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,694
Default

Hi again Stefan:


Nice cache of Maranao weapons that you came across. They are all of the same general vintage, second half of the 20th C, which fits with the time the original collector was in the Philippines. Do you happen to know where that individual purchased them? I would not be surprised if they came from Zamboanga, although recent Maranao weapons can be found in Manila's antique shops as well.


Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2019, 07:27 PM   #10
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,730
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
They are all of the same general vintage, second half of the 20th C, which fits with the time the original collector was in the Philippines.


Hi Ian,

While I agree with you in general I have to disagree when it comes to the kris blade, the overall style and the separate gangya I personally would place at the end of 19th to very early 20th century. I guess that an antique blade with rotted fittings get a new dress at the time of the mid to second half of the 20th, the current hilt and scabbard are typical for this time.
I know this practise from Indonesia, for example you can find very old blades in rather new tourist fittings (Bali).
I am nearly sure that we see an antique blade here.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2019, 07:34 PM   #11
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,730
Default

The best I am able to manage!
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2019, 08:30 PM   #12
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,266
Default

Oh I agree that the blade is old and around the time you suggest, Sajen. I'm with Ian when it comes to everything else about the kris. And yes you are also right in that several of these old blades have new "clothes" on them.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2019, 11:03 PM   #13
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,694
Default

Hi Setlef:


I agree that the kris blade is older and rehilted with a new scabbard, something we see quite a lot with Moro blades. I was really referring to when the present pieces were assembled. The dress on these is very much late 20th C. and in a distinctive style.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2019, 04:07 AM   #14
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,266
Default

From what I can see of the pictures, I still say recent work is from Marawi in Maranao country.

I'll admit though, better pictures would help make a better determination.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2019, 03:20 AM   #15
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,413
Default

I'm curious about the Philippine weapons with these design elements.

Most aspersions are simply cast that these are modern and by my own personal definition of "modern", I tend to somewhat agree but by what "age" definition is "modern" or "recent" when cast without a date in time being noted?

I seem to recall that several weapons of this manufacture and design elements are found in a museum in Hawaii, reputed to have been political gifts circa WWII/immediately post WWII. If the provenance is indeed correct, 70+ years is getting on and not too far in to the future, such loose dating may be quite misleading
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2019, 09:24 AM   #16
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 2,694
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent
...
Most aspersions are simply cast that these are modern and by my own personal definition of "modern", I tend to somewhat agree but by what "age" definition is "modern" or "recent" when cast without a date in time being noted?

I seem to recall that several weapons of this manufacture and design elements are found in a museum in Hawaii, reputed to have been political gifts circa WWII/immediately post WWII. If the provenance is indeed correct, 70+ years is getting on and not too far in to the future, such loose dating may be quite misleading
Hi Gavin:

Good point you raise about what the terms "recent" or "modern" may mean. To me these terms generally refer to something made within the last 25 years or so (i.e., roughly post-1995) but I don't know of a formal definition. Unlike "vintage" (> 50 years old) and "antique" (> 100 years old), we really don't have standard terms for periods less than 50 years.

In discussions such as the one above, I try to lay out periods in which these weapons likely fall--such as "mid-20th C" (roughly 1940-1960), "post-WWII" (1945-1955), "second half of the 20th C" (1950-2000), "late 20th C" (1970-2000), etc. Dating is always approximate with Filipino weapons because very few have dates that reflect when they were made. Sometimes the materials are helpful, such as the use of aluminum in the post-WWII period, but mostly we have to rely on subtleties of style.

In the present discussion we do see some materials (clam shell, mango wood) that suggest late-20th C or 21st C manufacture. Some of the decorative elements are also common to that period. Are these features seen occasionally on earlier pieces? I think they are, but the 1980s and especially the 1990s saw a ramping up of decorative Moro pieces to be sold to tourists, particularly Americans and Europeans, and also to Filipinos in the north. The antique stores of Manila and Makati were stocking many more Moro items in the 1980s/1990s than previously. However, production in Moroland likely preceded the increased marketing in Manila by several decades--hence my question about whether these were purchased in Zamboanga.

Putting all this together, the most likely time in which the items under discussion were assembled seems to be the early 1970s (allowing for the period in which the original collector was in the Philippines), which would make them almost "vintage."

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th October 2019, 10:25 AM   #17
Hombre
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 132
Default

Here are some more pictures of the Gunong....

Best,
Stefan
Attached Images
     
Hombre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th October 2019, 12:56 AM   #18
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,266
Default

This now looks to me to be of the 1940s era and the metal might be silver alloy (please polish the silver).
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2019, 05:34 PM   #19
Hombre
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 132
Default

Thank you guys for your inputs. I really appreciate it!

Best,
Stefan
Hombre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2019, 02:43 AM   #20
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,266
Default

No problem (wait till you get our bill! )
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:48 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.