Is this a legit shashka?

Alex K · 15th March 2016, 06:48 PM

I recently bought this shashka. The blade certainly looks to have all the hallmarks of a shashka, but I'll have to wait until I actually receive it to inspect the blade.

The stag horn handle is my main concern; I've never seen a shashka with a handle like that before. The auction house claimed it was made in the 18th century, but it looks far newer than that. Possibly a 20th century example made for tourists?

Cheers

Jim McDougall · 15th March 2016, 07:08 PM

I must confess I would not think of a 'shashka' as having a stag horn hilt, but remembering that shashka, like many other terms with sword types, is mostly a regional designation but typically referring to the cleft hilt, guardless sabres of the Caucusus.

With stag horn hilts, I am inclined to think of the couteau de chasse/ hirshfanger/ hunting sword phenomenon of 17th-19th c Europe (actually of course carried into more modern arms as well).

These were typically hangers either open or sometimes knuckleguarded hilts with shorter sabre blades. This seems a full size sabre simply with this unique style hilt. The blade appears of German make latter 18th c.

The 'hunting' situation by then had become very much a European 'event' of the gentry and nobility probably best likened to golf in todays corporate and political hierarchy. Fashion was an utmost concern and swords were an accoutrement of style as much as practicality (often more the former).

In European swords of the military auxiliary units, such as pandours of late 18th into early 19th they typically wore rather exotic uniforms as well as using weapons in same manner. The yataghan was a popular form and many were essentially Europeanized and I have a sabre, quite longish but with deep belly recurved blade, and a stag horn grip with slight cleft.

This sabre may fall into these European auxiliary cavalry categories, but I am inclined to think in terms of an actual combat weapon, more in a dress or parade type.

Just thoughts on possibilities, very handsome sabre!

ariel · 15th March 2016, 10:11 PM

The blade has unsharpened ricasso.
In the absense of personal examination, I would suggest 2 possibilities: industrial European blade or ( more likely, IMHO) Indian " tulwar" blade.

The handle is improvised, definitely not of a Caucasian style.
In summary: IMHO it is not a shashka. My verdict ( purely personal opinion): it is an assembled item of recent manufacture.

Robert · 16th March 2016, 02:32 AM

Alex, Please read and follow forum rules and upload your photos directly to the forum. Linking to a hosting sites is not an acceptable practice unless copyright requires the use of a link.

Best,
Robert

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2016, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The blade has unsharpened ricasso.
In the absense of personal examination, I would suggest 2 possibilities: industrial European blade or ( more likely, IMHO) Indian " tulwar" blade.

The handle is improvised, definitely not of a Caucasian style.
In summary: IMHO it is not a shashka. My verdict ( purely personal opinion): it is an assembled item of recent manufacture.

I agree!

Moreover, the tapering/narrowing of the blade towards the tip is definitely not characteristic for a Shashka. If you are looking for a name, Saber would be the most appropriate. Yet, I find the stag horn hilt a blatant mismatch.

Jim McDougall · 17th March 2016, 12:25 AM

Actually, this entire theme has been a red herring, prompted by this bizarre description of this sabre with stag horn grip being termed a 'shashka'.
This blade is probably as Ariel has noted, an Indian tulwar blade (if indeed with blunt ricasso) or otherwise as he also notes, a European (likely German) trade blade.

The fullering seems comparable to many German sabre blades of late 18th, but the use of the staghorn is most atypical, and agree that it seems most innovative. Use of the 'shashka' term most creative

.

Alex K · 21st March 2016, 02:35 PM

Many thanks for the informative replies! And Robert, thanks for editing my post so it meets the image posting requirements.

I guess this is one of those caveat emptor cases. Luckily I didn't pay too much for it, and it actually handles fairly decently for whatever it is. Despite its light weight, it doesn't feel 'whippy' and feels like it could cut reasonably well.

I've done some sleuthing around and it looks like this frankentulwar/sabre was auctioned a couple of years ago, except it wasn't sold as a shashka but as an "Old English sword blade, later mounted in stag horn handle". Looks like someone cleaned it up and tried to pass it off as a shashka to overeager folks like myself.

Does the blunt ricasso lend credence to it being a tulwar blade rather than a trade blade? Were European trade blades sharpened all the way down to the hilt? The blade seems a bit too dainty for it to be a tulwar, and most tulwar examples I've seen tend to be quite a bit wider near the tip. Do you guys perhaps have pics of tulwars or sabres with a similar blade shape? Jim, I'm particularly interested in those 18th century German sabre blades you mentioned.

Some stats:

Weight: 600-625g (my scale isn't particularly accurate)
Point of Balance: 20.3cm
Blade Length: 83.7cm
Total length: 98.6cm
Centre of Percussion: (very roughly) 16cm from the tip
Blade width at CoP: 3cm

Width of spine
Base: 7.01mm
1/4: 4.76mm
1/2: 3.72mm
3/4: 1.83
10cm from the tip: 0.95mm

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2016, 11:38 PM

Alex,
Actually as far as I know, European blades were indeed sharpened down to the hilt. The so called 'Indian ricasso' on their blades is believed to have to do with a certain propensity to curl the index finger around the quillon to support the blow of the sword. This is of course highly debated, but it seems enough support has been around to suggest this is quite likely.
Naturally, there are those who insist that the finger would be in danger in that position, but in typical combat the warrior parried with his dhal (shield),

To see a similar blade look to the thread on 'European blades in Indian Weapons' and the post by Estcrh which has linked an article by Robert Elgood which touches on this topic. In the linked article look at figure #7, a piso podang with one of these sabre blades, in this case with the familiar 'sickle marks'. With that, I might rethink my suggestion for German on the blade and suggest Styrian, more commonly with these kinds of fullers. The Indian armourers began copying these blades, and apart from that distinct ricasso they were pretty convincing.

Remember that the term shashka is of course a rather loosely used term and in the Russian military, even the D guard sabres are termed shashka.
It seems this describer either simply used the term as a lead in or perhaps simply assumed any sword without a guard must be a shashka? We can only wonder

While there are always many intriguing possible scenarios, it may simply be an innovative dealer creating a novelty with blade and stag horn grip.

kronckew · 22nd March 2016, 01:48 AM

reminds me of the whotsit i posted a few years back. HERE

Jim McDougall · 22nd March 2016, 02:44 AM

A stag horn Khyber!!!

No idea who fabricated these and when , but they do look impressive.

kronckew · 22nd March 2016, 11:20 AM

just a short comment: there seem to be a number of russian military shashkas from zlaloust with simple D or P guards. observing their corresponding scabbards i noted that the suspension rings are on the outside of the curve rather than on the normal inside as used elsewhere. it appears this is what sets these shashka aside from a sabre.

15th March 2016, 06:48 PM	#1
Alex K Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3	Is this a legit shashka? I recently bought this shashka. The blade certainly looks to have all the hallmarks of a shashka, but I'll have to wait until I actually receive it to inspect the blade. The stag horn handle is my main concern; I've never seen a shashka with a handle like that before. The auction house claimed it was made in the 18th century, but it looks far newer than that. Possibly a 20th century example made for tourists? Cheers Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 16th March 2016 at 05:15 AM.

15th March 2016, 10:11 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade has unsharpened ricasso. In the absense of personal examination, I would suggest 2 possibilities: industrial European blade or ( more likely, IMHO) Indian " tulwar" blade. The handle is improvised, definitely not of a Caucasian style. In summary: IMHO it is not a shashka. My verdict ( purely personal opinion): it is an assembled item of recent manufacture. Last edited by ariel; 16th March 2016 at 10:57 AM.

22nd March 2016, 01:48 AM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	reminds me of the whotsit i posted a few years back. HERE Attached Images

15th March 2016, 07:08 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I must confess I would not think of a 'shashka' as having a stag horn hilt, but remembering that shashka, like many other terms with sword types, is mostly a regional designation but typically referring to the cleft hilt, guardless sabres of the Caucusus. With stag horn hilts, I am inclined to think of the couteau de chasse/ hirshfanger/ hunting sword phenomenon of 17th-19th c Europe (actually of course carried into more modern arms as well). These were typically hangers either open or sometimes knuckleguarded hilts with shorter sabre blades. This seems a full size sabre simply with this unique style hilt. The blade appears of German make latter 18th c. The 'hunting' situation by then had become very much a European 'event' of the gentry and nobility probably best likened to golf in todays corporate and political hierarchy. Fashion was an utmost concern and swords were an accoutrement of style as much as practicality (often more the former). In European swords of the military auxiliary units, such as pandours of late 18th into early 19th they typically wore rather exotic uniforms as well as using weapons in same manner. The yataghan was a popular form and many were essentially Europeanized and I have a sabre, quite longish but with deep belly recurved blade, and a stag horn grip with slight cleft. This sabre may fall into these European auxiliary cavalry categories, but I am inclined to think in terms of an actual combat weapon, more in a dress or parade type. Just thoughts on possibilities, very handsome sabre!

16th March 2016, 02:32 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Alex, Please read and follow forum rules and upload your photos directly to the forum. Linking to a hosting sites is not an acceptable practice unless copyright requires the use of a link. Best, Robert

17th March 2016, 12:25 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Actually, this entire theme has been a red herring, prompted by this bizarre description of this sabre with stag horn grip being termed a 'shashka'. This blade is probably as Ariel has noted, an Indian tulwar blade (if indeed with blunt ricasso) or otherwise as he also notes, a European (likely German) trade blade. The fullering seems comparable to many German sabre blades of late 18th, but the use of the staghorn is most atypical, and agree that it seems most innovative. Use of the 'shashka' term most creative .

21st March 2016, 02:35 PM	#7
Alex K Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3	Many thanks for the informative replies! And Robert, thanks for editing my post so it meets the image posting requirements. I guess this is one of those caveat emptor cases. Luckily I didn't pay too much for it, and it actually handles fairly decently for whatever it is. Despite its light weight, it doesn't feel 'whippy' and feels like it could cut reasonably well. I've done some sleuthing around and it looks like this frankentulwar/sabre was auctioned a couple of years ago, except it wasn't sold as a shashka but as an "Old English sword blade, later mounted in stag horn handle". Looks like someone cleaned it up and tried to pass it off as a shashka to overeager folks like myself. Does the blunt ricasso lend credence to it being a tulwar blade rather than a trade blade? Were European trade blades sharpened all the way down to the hilt? The blade seems a bit too dainty for it to be a tulwar, and most tulwar examples I've seen tend to be quite a bit wider near the tip. Do you guys perhaps have pics of tulwars or sabres with a similar blade shape? Jim, I'm particularly interested in those 18th century German sabre blades you mentioned. Some stats: Weight: 600-625g (my scale isn't particularly accurate) Point of Balance: 20.3cm Blade Length: 83.7cm Total length: 98.6cm Centre of Percussion: (very roughly) 16cm from the tip Blade width at CoP: 3cm Width of spine Base: 7.01mm 1/4: 4.76mm 1/2: 3.72mm 3/4: 1.83 10cm from the tip: 0.95mm Attached Images

21st March 2016, 11:38 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Alex, Actually as far as I know, European blades were indeed sharpened down to the hilt. The so called 'Indian ricasso' on their blades is believed to have to do with a certain propensity to curl the index finger around the quillon to support the blow of the sword. This is of course highly debated, but it seems enough support has been around to suggest this is quite likely. Naturally, there are those who insist that the finger would be in danger in that position, but in typical combat the warrior parried with his dhal (shield), To see a similar blade look to the thread on 'European blades in Indian Weapons' and the post by Estcrh which has linked an article by Robert Elgood which touches on this topic. In the linked article look at figure #7, a piso podang with one of these sabre blades, in this case with the familiar 'sickle marks'. With that, I might rethink my suggestion for German on the blade and suggest Styrian, more commonly with these kinds of fullers. The Indian armourers began copying these blades, and apart from that distinct ricasso they were pretty convincing. Remember that the term shashka is of course a rather loosely used term and in the Russian military, even the D guard sabres are termed shashka. It seems this describer either simply used the term as a lead in or perhaps simply assumed any sword without a guard must be a shashka? We can only wonder While there are always many intriguing possible scenarios, it may simply be an innovative dealer creating a novelty with blade and stag horn grip.

22nd March 2016, 02:44 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	A stag horn Khyber!!! No idea who fabricated these and when , but they do look impressive.

22nd March 2016, 11:20 AM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	just a short comment: there seem to be a number of russian military shashkas from zlaloust with simple D or P guards. observing their corresponding scabbards i noted that the suspension rings are on the outside of the curve rather than on the normal inside as used elsewhere. it appears this is what sets these shashka aside from a sabre.