Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 27th April 2020, 05:40 PM   #1
GrozaB
Member
 
GrozaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 32
Default Weird Mameluke sword

Picked up very strange Mameluke sword. Hilt is ivory with steel cross guard, I think is British mid 19th. But blade... Blade is straight, 33" long, 1.4" wide and 1/4" thick. Blade was brutally cleaned and I can see some small forging flaws, so I can assume it is hand forged, not machine made. Another thing is scabbards. It fits the blade perfectly and I'm pretty sure it is original to the blade. Scabbard looks 100% British to me. But I can't remember any 19th century British sword with such blade! At first I was thinking it is Swedish, they love this form, but all Swedish blades I know is diamond shaped and this one is convex...
Sword itself is most likely later compilation, but what is the blade origin? Maybe Scottish? Аny thoughts? Comments?
Attached Images
        
GrozaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2020, 08:02 PM   #2
GrozaB
Member
 
GrozaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 32
Default

Found another one, kind of similar, clearly based on Scottish blade
Attached Images
    
GrozaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2020, 08:09 PM   #3
MacCathain
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 65
Default

The blade is a dead ringer for a circa 1840s U.S. militia officer's sword in my collection. The Ames-made blade is convex, the single central fuller appears to be the same length and breadth, and the drag on the scabbard seems to be identical. Yours lacks etching, but otherwise it seems a good fit.
Attached Images
 
MacCathain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2020, 08:33 PM   #4
GrozaB
Member
 
GrozaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 32
Default

Hm... You can be right on it. But all militia sword I saw had way smaller blades - usually 25-29" long, about 1-1.25" wide and twice lighter. This one is pretty massive and heavy - 2lbs without scabbard. Also scabbards on militia sword usually bit different - leather or brass with 3 rings.
GrozaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2020, 08:43 PM   #5
MacCathain
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 65
Default

I believe the shorter militia swords with leather scabbards are generally for NCOs. Hotspur knows these very well, so perhaps he can address them.

The officer's sword I posted has a 31 inch blade that is 1 inch wide at the ricasso. The narrow central fuller is about 12 inches long.

Both this example and another "full size" US militia officer's sword in my collection have all-metal scabbards.

Here's an ACW-vintage shot of Lt. Col. Charles Norton wearing the same sword.
Attached Images
 
MacCathain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2020, 09:01 PM   #6
GrozaB
Member
 
GrozaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 32
Default

Again, you probably right on blade origin. The central fuller on my blade is bit under 9". And whole sword handles like cutting, not thrusting weapon. Of course you can thrust with this one, but it is bit heavy and slow for the job. In handles more like palash or backsword.
GrozaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2020, 11:01 PM   #7
Bryce
Member
 
Bryce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 173
Default

This style of blade was common om British 1798 pattern basket hilt swords and 1796 heavy cavalry officer dress swords. I haven't come across one mounted on a mameluke hilt before.
Cheers,
Bryce
Attached Images
 
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2020, 11:30 PM   #8
GrozaB
Member
 
GrozaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 32
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce
This style of blade was common om British 1798 pattern basket hilt swords and 1796 heavy cavalry officer dress swords. I haven't come across one mounted on a mameluke hilt before.
Cheers,
Bryce
You nailed it!
I completely forgot it was two different 1796 Heavy Calvary swords...
Quick google search and I found bunch with very similar blades(31-34" long) and absolutely the same scabbard. Mystery solved, thank you very much!
Attached Images
    
GrozaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2020, 07:36 AM   #9
Hotspur
Member
 
Hotspur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 481
Default

Yes, the 1796 HC dress swords. In turn copied by the US almost entirely as our 1832-1833 general officer sword with left overs in turn adopted by centurion pommel militia officer swords with a short ricasso and fuller. Not to be confused with lesser militia swords (which became quite skinny after the 1860s), Another common denominator of the slim fullered broadsword blade of the 1796 HC dress lineage were the pistol grip US militia swords and some eagle head pommel swords. My own eagle baby broadsword blade is slimmer still and no fuller but with a short ricasso.

Cheers
GC
Attached Images
         
Hotspur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 12:01 AM   #10
GrozaB
Member
 
GrozaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 32
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotspur
Yes, the 1796 HC dress swords. In turn copied by the US almost entirely as our 1832-1833 general officer sword with left overs in turn adopted by centurion pommel militia officer swords with a short ricasso and fuller. Not to be confused with lesser militia swords (which became quite skinny after the 1860s), Another common denominator of the slim fullered broadsword blade of the 1796 HC dress lineage were the pistol grip US militia swords and some eagle head pommel swords. My own eagle baby broadsword blade is slimmer still and no fuller but with a short ricasso.

Cheers
GC
So, what is your opinion - my sword has British, US roots or it is just some later compilation?
GrozaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 05:30 AM   #11
Hotspur
Member
 
Hotspur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 481
Default

I wouldn't necessarily claim the blade from the 1796 era (possibly earlier) but the assembly (imo) was more likely to be English or European in unification.

Cheers
GC
Hotspur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 09:44 AM   #12
Richard G
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 400
Default

That 'one ringed' scabbard, if that is what it is, would be exceedingly rare, if not unknown, with a British sword.
Regards
Richard
Richard G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th April 2020, 02:01 PM   #13
GrozaB
Member
 
GrozaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 32
Default

It's just a missing ring
GrozaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.