Royal Armouries Support Group Leeds.

Micke D · 5th March 2013, 02:11 PM

Thank you David, I will try the Library staff and see if they can help me!

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2013, 04:39 PM

I am envious as well! It would be great to just be able to visit the Royal Armouries, let alone have access to such a discussion group. I hope you will share some of the topic material here and perhaps some of the questions which come up here might afford some perspective which could enhance both groups.
Paul, I recall that gorget which led to some pretty intriguing research and discussion. I would really like to see more develop on the identification of that one as well!

David R · 7th March 2013, 12:13 AM

Hiya Paul, regarding your gorget I would suggest enquiring of the National Army Museum in London, as that seems more a uniform question than weaponry. However if you post a pic I can show it to P.S.J. a friend of mine who has an almost encyclopeadic knowledge of 18th and 19thC British Uniform, and see what he comes up with.
Re the group, I am very aware of how lucky I am both in the locality of the Museum and the existance of such a group of collectors.

PClemente · 7th March 2013, 11:48 PM

Hi David,
I will certainly take your advice regarding the National Army Museum. I am posting some photos of the gorget in question.
A number of years ago I was able to trade with a dealer in the UK for this gorget pattern that I had never seen before. Instead of the usual brass or silver gorget, this example was made of leather and bears a royal cypher in brass. Research led me to believe that the piece might be an example of a gorget pattern adapted to warfare in the colonies during the French & Indian War, by colonial ranger companies such as Rogers Rangers, or a pattern worn by certain Loyalist troops during the Revolution who were trying to avoid being targeted as officers. The insignia appears to be a cipher reversed and interlaced. Further research led me to believe that the cypher might be the royal cypher of King George II or III " reversed and interlaced " which was a device used by the First Royal Regiment of Foot which fought with distinction in the colonies during the French & Indian War. The possibilities regarding the gorget are intriguing and I would love to know who might have used such a gorget and if my conclusions (maybe wishful thinking) might be correct.

Thanks for any help and insight!
Regards,
Paul

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2013, 07:59 PM

Paul, as I recall in our discussions on this intriguing gorget you did some pretty impressive research already. It is truly puzzling that more information on these is not available in uniforms and accoutrements of such distinct units such as Rogers Rangers, who were the forerunners of later distinguished units such as Berdans Sharpshooters, the Rangers, and Green Berets. I am extremely proud that I had a great grandfather in Berdans (2nd U.S. Sharpshooters); an uncle in Darbys Rangers (4th); and a son in law formerly Rangers, 82nd Airborne, then 4th Infantry Iraq and Afghanistan (returning this week, his son just enlisted in Marines).

It is wonderful to have items such as this to enhance our knowledge and understanding of the history of these distinguished units.

PClemente · 9th March 2013, 12:25 AM

Hi Jim,

Thanks - I am constantly seeking to educate myself in regards to militaria and military history, and the gorget is certainly intriguing.
Your observation regarding the lack of material on such accoutrements as used by the famous Ranger companies is part of what fuels my search for additional information. Ideally I would like some concrete evidence to support any possible conclusions regarding the gorget. It might be a incredibly rare gorget attributable to a famed Ranger company, or something else entirely. The fact that there is not specific mention of such adaptations or other examples around increases my desire to continue research.
Your family's history of military service is something to be proud of. As a teacher I continually stress to my students that while we often focus on famous Americans as we learn about our nation's history, that the true heroes are those that are willing to give their lives for us and our great nation.

Jim McDougall · 9th March 2013, 06:24 AM

Paul, thank you so much for the kind words. I remain as intrigued as ever on your gorget, and I added some of my recent research on it to the original thread so as to continue that as a developing resource for this important item.

All the best,
Jim

7th March 2013, 11:48 PM	#4
PClemente Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 42	Hi David, I will certainly take your advice regarding the National Army Museum. I am posting some photos of the gorget in question. A number of years ago I was able to trade with a dealer in the UK for this gorget pattern that I had never seen before. Instead of the usual brass or silver gorget, this example was made of leather and bears a royal cypher in brass. Research led me to believe that the piece might be an example of a gorget pattern adapted to warfare in the colonies during the French & Indian War, by colonial ranger companies such as Rogers Rangers, or a pattern worn by certain Loyalist troops during the Revolution who were trying to avoid being targeted as officers. The insignia appears to be a cipher reversed and interlaced. Further research led me to believe that the cypher might be the royal cypher of King George II or III " reversed and interlaced " which was a device used by the First Royal Regiment of Foot which fought with distinction in the colonies during the French & Indian War. The possibilities regarding the gorget are intriguing and I would love to know who might have used such a gorget and if my conclusions (maybe wishful thinking) might be correct. Thanks for any help and insight! Regards, Paul Attached Images

5th March 2013, 02:11 PM	#1
Micke D Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 41	Thank you David, I will try the Library staff and see if they can help me!

6th March 2013, 04:39 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	I am envious as well! It would be great to just be able to visit the Royal Armouries, let alone have access to such a discussion group. I hope you will share some of the topic material here and perhaps some of the questions which come up here might afford some perspective which could enhance both groups. Paul, I recall that gorget which led to some pretty intriguing research and discussion. I would really like to see more develop on the identification of that one as well!

7th March 2013, 12:13 AM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,053	Hiya Paul, regarding your gorget I would suggest enquiring of the National Army Museum in London, as that seems more a uniform question than weaponry. However if you post a pic I can show it to P.S.J. a friend of mine who has an almost encyclopeadic knowledge of 18th and 19thC British Uniform, and see what he comes up with. Re the group, I am very aware of how lucky I am both in the locality of the Museum and the existance of such a group of collectors.

8th March 2013, 07:59 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Paul, as I recall in our discussions on this intriguing gorget you did some pretty impressive research already. It is truly puzzling that more information on these is not available in uniforms and accoutrements of such distinct units such as Rogers Rangers, who were the forerunners of later distinguished units such as Berdans Sharpshooters, the Rangers, and Green Berets. I am extremely proud that I had a great grandfather in Berdans (2nd U.S. Sharpshooters); an uncle in Darbys Rangers (4th); and a son in law formerly Rangers, 82nd Airborne, then 4th Infantry Iraq and Afghanistan (returning this week, his son just enlisted in Marines). It is wonderful to have items such as this to enhance our knowledge and understanding of the history of these distinguished units.

9th March 2013, 12:25 AM	#6
PClemente Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 42	Hi Jim, Thanks - I am constantly seeking to educate myself in regards to militaria and military history, and the gorget is certainly intriguing. Your observation regarding the lack of material on such accoutrements as used by the famous Ranger companies is part of what fuels my search for additional information. Ideally I would like some concrete evidence to support any possible conclusions regarding the gorget. It might be a incredibly rare gorget attributable to a famed Ranger company, or something else entirely. The fact that there is not specific mention of such adaptations or other examples around increases my desire to continue research. Your family's history of military service is something to be proud of. As a teacher I continually stress to my students that while we often focus on famous Americans as we learn about our nation's history, that the true heroes are those that are willing to give their lives for us and our great nation.

9th March 2013, 06:24 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Paul, thank you so much for the kind words. I remain as intrigued as ever on your gorget, and I added some of my recent research on it to the original thread so as to continue that as a developing resource for this important item. All the best, Jim