Paleo knife?

Rust Collector · 26th June 2011, 09:55 PM

I just found this in the wash behind my house! My expertise in this area is limited but my educated guess is paleo butchering knife.

katana · 27th June 2011, 06:07 PM

The pictures suggest that it is a sedimentary type rock ....which tend to be relatively soft ...when compared to flint etc.

Regards David

Atlantia · 27th June 2011, 06:13 PM

Sorry Rust,
looks natural to me. As David says, looks like a soft material.
If it was chert or flint then...
I'd still think it was a random shape.

Rust Collector · 27th June 2011, 06:37 PM

My pictures are lacking and I will try to get a better shot of the edge. It is also a river find so the edges are rounded a litttle but it cleary shows percusion and pressure flacking and the base is ground round where it would be held.

David · 27th June 2011, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rust Collector

My pictures are lacking and I will try to get a better shot of the edge. It is also a river find so the edges are rounded a litttle but it cleary shows percusion and pressure flacking and the base is ground round where it would be held.

I think the point the others are trying to make is that this is not a suitable material for the type of tool you are hoping this is. Paleo man didn't hold any college degrees, but he had "street" smarts. Sedimentary rock would not be his mineral of choice for such a tool.

spiral · 27th June 2011, 11:22 PM

I must say on a purley factual level some stone age tools were of sedimentry rocks, I guess people on occasion used whatever was to hand.I agree the were not the tool or weapon of choice of course though.

But having seen many thousands of admitadly mostly mesolithic tools dug & itemsed, as well as having owned & studied the personal collection of an archaelogist that was aquired & dug from m 3 continents mostly between the world wars, I tottaly agree with evryone else this is a possibly frost & or certanly mechanichly damaged & water rolled stone, shaped by the forces of nature.

Many Victorian archaelogists fell for their charms as well, there often called Eoliths.

Some still believe in them. Ive even wanted to myself

on one occasion.

spiral

Atlantia · 27th June 2011, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

I must say on a purley factual level some stone age tools were of sedimentry rocks, I guess people on occasion used whatever was to hand.I agree the were not the tool or weapon of choice of course though.

But having seen many thousands of admitadly mostly mesolithic tools dug & itemsed, as well as having owned & studied the personal collection of an archaelogist that was aquired & dug from m 3 continents mostly between the world wars, I tottaly agree with evryone else this is a possibly frost & or certanly mechanichly damaged & water rolled stone, shaped by the forces of nature.

Many Victorian archaelogists fell for their charms as well, there often called Eoliths.

Some still believe in them. Ive even wanted to myself

on one occasion.

spiral

Hi Jonathan

Axes and the like, I've seen (had) made from softer materials, greensand etc, but they're often ceremonial or status pieces.

Not knives though, unless it's something like Obsidian (and volcanic glass isn;t the same thing of course)

Although my experience (as that of most I guess) is based on the far more plentiful later stone tools, dating through to the EBA.
I've still got a box of flints somewhere, only a few that are still to hand:

spiral · 28th June 2011, 12:07 AM

I agree Gene, Ive never seen a sedimentry knife, I took the butchering comment to mean something heavier, but thats my error perhaps...

I am away for a couple of days but we must talk about flints sometime, they were my speciality & obsession for a long time. {I prefer the one on the left.}

Spiral

Rust Collector · 28th June 2011, 01:15 AM

This object is NOT made of soft rock or sedimentary rock! It passes the steel test. I Believe it to be a chert.

katana · 28th June 2011, 04:03 PM

Hi
Chert is a form of sedimentary rock. Notice the whitish flecks (inclusions). Chert varies both in colour and hardness.

" .....Chert is a microcrystalline or cryptocrystalline sedimentary rock material composed of silicon dioxide (SiO2). It occurs as nodules, concretionary masses and as layered deposits. Chert breaks with a conchoidal fracture, often producing very sharp edges. Early people took advantage of how chert breaks and used it to fashion cutting tools and weapons......"

Cryptocrystalline is a rock texture made up of such minute crystals that its crystalline nature is only vaguely revealed even microscopically in thin section by transmitted polarized light. Among the sedimentary rocks, chert and flint are cryptocrystalline.

A microcrystalline material is a crystallized substance or rock that contains small crystals visible only through microscopic examination

Judging, again, by the pictures there seems to be inclusions which are not crypto/micro crystalline. Perhaps some clear close-ups might help of the rock surface and percusion / pressure flaking areas.

Kind Regards David

VANDOO · 29th June 2011, 01:06 AM

THE MATERIAL SHOWN LOOKS LIKE A POOR CHOICE FOR STONE TOOL OR BLADE BUT SOMETIMES THEY NO DOUBT USED WHAT WAS AVAILABLE. THE MATERIAL REMINDS ME OF THE BRICK IT IS LAYING ON.
I HAVE SEEN TOOLS MADE OF BRICK, BROKEN POTTERY, GLASS,QUARTZ, SLATE, LIMESTONE AND VARIOUS IGNEOUS ROCKS. SLATE AND OTHER SEDIMENTARY ROCKS ARE USUALLY SHAPED BY GRINDING OR PECKING AS THEY DON'T FLAKE WELL.
PERHAPS SOME OF THE SOFTER ROCKS WERE USED FOR TEACHING TECKNIQUES TO BEGINNERS. NO DOUBT AN EXPERT FLINT KNAPPER PREFERRED GOOD MATERIAL BUT NOT EVERYONE WAS BLESSED WITH A GOOD SUPPLY OF OBSIDIAN OR FLINT SO THERE IS A WIDE VARIETY OF ODD ARTEFACTS OUT THERE. GOOD FLINT OR CHERT OR OBSIDIAN WAS WIDELY TRADED IN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA.

LOOK AROUND FOR A POINT SHOW (ARTEFACT SHOW) IN YOIUR AREA AND SOMEONE THERE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU SOME GOOD INFO ON IT. GOOD LUCK

David · 29th June 2011, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Chert is a form of sedimentary rock. Notice the whitish flecks (inclusions). Chert varies both in colour and hardness.

Well so much for my high school geology education...

Rust Collector · 4th July 2011, 02:07 AM

Sorry it took so long to get back with better pictures... I've been having trouble getting as close up as I wanted but I think I've go some that illustrate my points. If nothing else this thread has given me an appreciation for the great photography that I see all the time on this forum and the idea that I need a better camera.
I am more convinced the material is chert, it is riddled with crystal occlusions, fractures concoidally and seems to meet the rest of the charataristic associated with it.

fearn · 5th July 2011, 05:01 PM

I'm having trouble seeing the conchoidal fractures. Atlantia's post in #7 shows them quite clearly. Conchoidal fractures are what one sees when glass breaks. Is there a way you can indicate where you are seeing conchoidal fractures?

As for cryptocrystalline (crystal structure too small to see), I see crystals, and I see lots of evidence (the holes along the edge, for one) where there are fairly large crystals.

F

Tim Simmons · 5th July 2011, 05:29 PM

I am having difficulty seeing anything on this stone that has been cause by humans. Even some of the Australian Aboriginal basic stone tools, noted for there lack of sophisticated napping and grinding show clear signs of the human hand. I do realise that this sort of thing is so difficult to present through a PC.

Atlantia · 5th July 2011, 09:16 PM

Sorry Rust, I've got to say that I'm still of the opinion that this is a natural shape.
I also don't think it is the kind of chert that is used for tools.

aiontay · 6th July 2011, 03:58 AM

In my completely unexpert opinion, it is a natural, not man made stone artifact.

However, I have on one occasion made a discodial knife (breaking a flake of a rounded rock which makes a disc shaped flake) from a piece of sandstone, and it did result in a very sharp edge that would cut. The edge quickly broke up and you couldn't really re-flake it to sharpen it. Pretty lousy material for a blade, but if you had nothing else you could skin a rabbit or cut down a small sapling in a pinch, but it would be useless after that one task.

Henk · 6th July 2011, 08:57 AM

Sorry Rust, it is just a stone. Nothing more nothing less, If you like it you can keep it, but i would throw it back in the garden.

It will become a weapon when you're going to beat your neighbour with it. It still will be a recent weapon then, not paleo.

26th June 2011, 09:55 PM	#1
Rust Collector Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 11	Paleo knife? I just found this in the wash behind my house! My expertise in this area is limited but my educated guess is paleo butchering knife. Attached Images

4th July 2011, 02:07 AM	#13
Rust Collector Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 11	Sorry it took so long to get back with better pictures... I've been having trouble getting as close up as I wanted but I think I've go some that illustrate my points. If nothing else this thread has given me an appreciation for the great photography that I see all the time on this forum and the idea that I need a better camera. I am more convinced the material is chert, it is riddled with crystal occlusions, fractures concoidally and seems to meet the rest of the charataristic associated with it. Attached Images

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27th June 2011, 06:07 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The pictures suggest that it is a sedimentary type rock ....which tend to be relatively soft ...when compared to flint etc. Regards David

27th June 2011, 06:13 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Sorry Rust, looks natural to me. As David says, looks like a soft material. If it was chert or flint then... I'd still think it was a random shape.

27th June 2011, 06:37 PM	#4
Rust Collector Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 11	My pictures are lacking and I will try to get a better shot of the edge. It is also a river find so the edges are rounded a litttle but it cleary shows percusion and pressure flacking and the base is ground round where it would be held.

27th June 2011, 11:22 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I must say on a purley factual level some stone age tools were of sedimentry rocks, I guess people on occasion used whatever was to hand.I agree the were not the tool or weapon of choice of course though. But having seen many thousands of admitadly mostly mesolithic tools dug & itemsed, as well as having owned & studied the personal collection of an archaelogist that was aquired & dug from m 3 continents mostly between the world wars, I tottaly agree with evryone else this is a possibly frost & or certanly mechanichly damaged & water rolled stone, shaped by the forces of nature. Many Victorian archaelogists fell for their charms as well, there often called Eoliths. Some still believe in them. Ive even wanted to myself on one occasion. spiral

28th June 2011, 12:07 AM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I agree Gene, Ive never seen a sedimentry knife, I took the butchering comment to mean something heavier, but thats my error perhaps... I am away for a couple of days but we must talk about flints sometime, they were my speciality & obsession for a long time. {I prefer the one on the left.} Spiral

28th June 2011, 01:15 AM	#9
Rust Collector Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 11	This object is NOT made of soft rock or sedimentary rock! It passes the steel test. I Believe it to be a chert.

28th June 2011, 04:03 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Chert is a form of sedimentary rock. Notice the whitish flecks (inclusions). Chert varies both in colour and hardness. " .....Chert is a microcrystalline or cryptocrystalline sedimentary rock material composed of silicon dioxide (SiO2). It occurs as nodules, concretionary masses and as layered deposits. Chert breaks with a conchoidal fracture, often producing very sharp edges. Early people took advantage of how chert breaks and used it to fashion cutting tools and weapons......" Cryptocrystalline is a rock texture made up of such minute crystals that its crystalline nature is only vaguely revealed even microscopically in thin section by transmitted polarized light. Among the sedimentary rocks, chert and flint are cryptocrystalline. A microcrystalline material is a crystallized substance or rock that contains small crystals visible only through microscopic examination Judging, again, by the pictures there seems to be inclusions which are not crypto/micro crystalline. Perhaps some clear close-ups might help of the rock surface and percusion / pressure flaking areas. Kind Regards David

29th June 2011, 01:06 AM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE MATERIAL SHOWN LOOKS LIKE A POOR CHOICE FOR STONE TOOL OR BLADE BUT SOMETIMES THEY NO DOUBT USED WHAT WAS AVAILABLE. THE MATERIAL REMINDS ME OF THE BRICK IT IS LAYING ON. I HAVE SEEN TOOLS MADE OF BRICK, BROKEN POTTERY, GLASS,QUARTZ, SLATE, LIMESTONE AND VARIOUS IGNEOUS ROCKS. SLATE AND OTHER SEDIMENTARY ROCKS ARE USUALLY SHAPED BY GRINDING OR PECKING AS THEY DON'T FLAKE WELL. PERHAPS SOME OF THE SOFTER ROCKS WERE USED FOR TEACHING TECKNIQUES TO BEGINNERS. NO DOUBT AN EXPERT FLINT KNAPPER PREFERRED GOOD MATERIAL BUT NOT EVERYONE WAS BLESSED WITH A GOOD SUPPLY OF OBSIDIAN OR FLINT SO THERE IS A WIDE VARIETY OF ODD ARTEFACTS OUT THERE. GOOD FLINT OR CHERT OR OBSIDIAN WAS WIDELY TRADED IN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA. LOOK AROUND FOR A POINT SHOW (ARTEFACT SHOW) IN YOIUR AREA AND SOMEONE THERE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU SOME GOOD INFO ON IT. GOOD LUCK

5th July 2011, 05:01 PM	#14
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm having trouble seeing the conchoidal fractures. Atlantia's post in #7 shows them quite clearly. Conchoidal fractures are what one sees when glass breaks. Is there a way you can indicate where you are seeing conchoidal fractures? As for cryptocrystalline (crystal structure too small to see), I see crystals, and I see lots of evidence (the holes along the edge, for one) where there are fairly large crystals. F

5th July 2011, 05:29 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	I am having difficulty seeing anything on this stone that has been cause by humans. Even some of the Australian Aboriginal basic stone tools, noted for there lack of sophisticated napping and grinding show clear signs of the human hand. I do realise that this sort of thing is so difficult to present through a PC.

5th July 2011, 09:16 PM	#16
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Sorry Rust, I've got to say that I'm still of the opinion that this is a natural shape. I also don't think it is the kind of chert that is used for tools.

6th July 2011, 03:58 AM	#17
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	In my completely unexpert opinion, it is a natural, not man made stone artifact. However, I have on one occasion made a discodial knife (breaking a flake of a rounded rock which makes a disc shaped flake) from a piece of sandstone, and it did result in a very sharp edge that would cut. The edge quickly broke up and you couldn't really re-flake it to sharpen it. Pretty lousy material for a blade, but if you had nothing else you could skin a rabbit or cut down a small sapling in a pinch, but it would be useless after that one task.

6th July 2011, 08:57 AM	#18
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Sorry Rust, it is just a stone. Nothing more nothing less, If you like it you can keep it, but i would throw it back in the garden. It will become a weapon when you're going to beat your neighbour with it. It still will be a recent weapon then, not paleo.