17thC Scottish Snaphaunce Musket

Norman McCormick · 7th July 2012, 07:54 PM

Hi,
First of all I would like to thank Michael (Matchlock) for his time, patience and expertise in helping me with this musket.

I will really have to let the photographs do the talking. A second half of the 17thC Scottish snaphaunce lock with possibly an earlier barrel, almost complete. A "Wee Beauty".
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 8th July 2012, 01:51 PM

Hi,
Some more photos of the barrel stamps and the underside decoration around the trigger. Barrel length 31 3/4 inches total length 44 1/2 inches bore just shy of 3/4 inch.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 8th July 2012, 03:11 PM

Ah, great stuff, Norman.
I shouldn't tell you that, affraid you get too vain

.
... But alright, you deserve it

rickystl · 8th July 2012, 08:13 PM

Hi Norman!! Thanks for the PM heads-up. OHHHHHH my goodness.

A "Wee Beauty" is certainly correct. What a fantastic find!! Except for the middle and rear barrel bands, it looks complete. Even the trumpet shaped ramrod. The lock design and partial fishtail butt stock looks sooooo Scottish.

I must admit that I'm jealous with envy that you saw this gun before I did.

Thanks for the great photos. Hope you don't mind me saving these in my photo library? The lock appears complete. The sear assembly seems to be a slight variation from others I've seen. What a wonderful, interesting gun. I'm glad you were able to enlist Michael's expertise on this. Did you locate this gun in Scotland?
Again, my congratulations. A wonderful early piece that just reeks with history. My hats off. Rick.

rickystl · 8th July 2012, 08:17 PM

Just noticed the two holes in the stock. One at the wrist, and the other where the middle barrel band use to be. This indicates that this gun may have had a sling installed at some point in the past? Rick.

Norman McCormick · 8th July 2012, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah, great stuff, Norman.
I shouldn't tell you that, affraid you get too vain

.
... But alright, you deserve it

Hi Fernando,
Do you think between us we now have enough firepower and shining blades to defend the Lines of Torres Vedras.

Kind Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 8th July 2012, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
Do you think between us we now have enough firepower and shining blades to defend the Lines of Torres Vedras.

Kind Regards,
Norman.

Attention people; we are facing here a well educated Scot

.

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Attention people; we are facing here a well educated Scot

.

Aye lads!!! That he is!!!
Norman, beautiful example and as always I very much like your approach in learning and sharing your discern in the examples you find. Nicely done on the addition of the plate as well, a powerful reminder that there is no limit to sources for key information in the study of these weapons. Textbook!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 8th July 2012, 08:47 PM

Hi Rick,
I thought you would like this one. I must say I never imagined I would ever snag a piece like this. It's really nice to hold and the dark areas on the stock are worn smooth from use. There is a 2 inch difference between where the ramrod reaches down the barrel and the touchhole so maybe it's still loaded!! I did source it locally and it's been lying around in a relatively dry atmosphere, not easy up here, for a long time. I'm of the same opinion re the holes in the stock and I've attached an early decorated plate which if you look closely at the rifle sling it looks to be attached in similar areas. You are very welcome to use any of the photos and if there is any particular ones that you want and are not here just ask. Thanks again for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 8th July 2012, 08:56 PM

What a fascinating plate. Is it yours, Norman ?

rickystl · 8th July 2012, 09:14 PM

Hi Norman. Yes, the gun may indeed still have a load in the barrel.

Of course, this won't be the first old gun that was aquired still loaded. Since I have the tools needed to safely extract that load (or other obstruction) I suggest you send the gun to my house for analysis and unloading. It shouldn't take me more than a couple years.

When you lower the rod into the barrel, does it feel/sound like it's hitting something solid or soft? Rick.

Norman McCormick · 9th July 2012, 04:45 PM

Hi Michael,
I was hoping you would come in with a detailed description. Having had more time to look at the piece I get the impression that the lock may not be the first that has been on this gun. The attached photo suggests to my untrained eye that a large washer or a larger headed screw/bolt was once there but this may be as a result of the screw/bolt being replaced rather than an attachment for a different barrel, as I can see no evidence of a trigger guard ever having been fitted to the stock it gives me more hope that the stock may originally be of Scottish origin rather than continental. I have sent photographs to Mr Jonathan Ferguson curator of firearms at the Royal Armouries who is going to confer with Mr Robert Woosnam-Savage who co-wrote a book on Scottish firearms so hopefully definitive information may be coming soon. Many thanks for your kind words and interest.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

P.S. When I think about it the composition could be any combination of lock,stock and barrel

Matchlock · 9th July 2012, 05:26 PM

Hi Norman,

Agreed: in the worst given case the item may be composite from three different main parts, and the brass-filled touch hole may conceal the fact that the barrel was converted to (and rebuilt from) percussion - in which case the lock cannot belong.
Also the crispness of the surfaces of barrel and stock differs greatly from that of the much better preserved lock, showing that the first two have seem much more use (and abrasion).

Telling from your lines, my intuitive initial premonitions seem justifiable.
From all I have learned in over 30 years of closest study is to be extremely careful as soon as an item does not look completely characteristic in all its single aspects; riveted screws or pins and crude alterations have become amber lights to me: the only explanation is that somebody intended to prohibit others from dismantling the gun for research - which is completely contradictory to the fact that all main parts of a gun must be easy to dismantle in case when cleaning or repair is needed.

On the other hand, you certainly did not overpay the piece, and some of the scans I attached show that trigger guards were used on both English and Scottish snaphaunce guns from the end of the 16th c.

Best,
m

Norman McCormick · 9th July 2012, 05:52 PM

Hi Michael,
Yes, I think it would be wise to 'hang fire' and first see what transpires with the Royal Armouries. There are some possibilities re the less used lock, it does show some scraping on the strike plate so it has been used albeit a little. After the 1715 rebellion and especially after the 1745 all weapons were proscribed by the victors and weapons were destroyed some being concealed and as you know older technology lasted a lot longer in Scotland than south of the border. Could have been little used and then hidden!! who knows time will tell I hope.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 9th July 2012, 07:18 PM

Hi Michael,
Apart from the obvious the lock on this rifle is the closest in details I can see to mine. On a separate note, there are two small square holes, non identical, and two very small round ones in the rear of the butt. Are you aware of this style of butt occasionally having a separate buttplate maybe attached with hand made square nails, or could it have been a butt extension as we have these days for different sized shooters. Being a regular shooter I know just how important this sizing is. Just some thoughts.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

Matchlock · 9th July 2012, 10:25 PM

Hi Norman,

Butt plates did not normally appear before the 1580's on European military muskets, and they were made of very thin hammered iron attached not by nails but by tacks, with small, irregularly shaped but mostly rectangular heads.

Attached are details of a very fine German (Suhl) matchlock musket, ca. 1590-1600, overall length 1.67 m, weight 8.4 kgs, preserved in as-new condition; author's collection.

Only during the first half of the 18th c., butt plates got thicker and more figured, made of either iron or brass - depending on the material employed for the rest of the mounts.

Best,
Michael

Norman McCormick · 9th July 2012, 11:08 PM

Hi Michael,
Photo of the rear of the butt. Got it too, iron butt plates used to protect the wood rather than an aid to shooting.

My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. You can see where the bottom edge has been knocked off at some time and repaired.

Matchlock · 9th July 2012, 11:29 PM

Yeah,

These look like tack holes.

m

Norman McCormick · 9th July 2012, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Yeah,

These look like tack holes.

m

Great

My Regards,
Norman.

rickystl · 11th July 2012, 07:10 PM

Hi Norman! And Michael! This has been a great Thread to read. Really enjoying this. Thank you both. A couple of notes:
The brazing at the touch hole area is curious. Could it be that the barrel was used on a previous gun? The current gun and lock combination requiring the vent hole in a different position? But, as Michael said, it is curious that it was done so crudely. Hmmmmm.

Norman: If you have an opportunity would you let me know some dimensions? Overall length, barrel length and caliber, lock length and width, etc. Only if you get the chance. Thanks. Rick.

Matchlock · 11th July 2012, 08:16 PM

Hi Rick,

I have posted all my assumptions concerning the history of the barrel and lock, and Norman has given some measurements in post # 2.

Best,
m

Norman McCormick · 9th July 2012, 11:36 PM

Hi Michael,
Just a thought looking at your lovely matchlock. Is the stock on my musket of a type that may have been used for a matchlock prior to the present configuration. Could explain the lack of trigger guard evidence rather than a particularly Scottish connection which would make your Dutch/English idea re the stock more likely. Could have been rehashed up here so still no trigger guard.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 12th July 2012, 03:26 PM

Hi,
I have now received a reply to my enquiry from the Royal Armouries in Leeds. British snaphaunce C1700 based on lock style and barrel, what appears to be London private proofmark on the barrel C1702 although I get the impression that this is probably open to conjecture. Clearly not classically Scottish therefore not necessarily Scottish. The Scottish aspect is obviously not provable either way but I would like to think, based on info already received, the possibility is there.

I'm in the process of arranging the removal of what I think is a ball and charge still in the musket with a muzzleloading member of my rifle club and I will post the results. I am delighted to have this piece in my collection regardless of pedigree and I would like to thank you all for your kind words and continued interest. Should any further information come to light I will of course let you know.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. A light application of gun oil and 'hey presto' the lock is working just fine sliding pan cover and all.

rickystl · 12th July 2012, 08:35 PM

Norman: Thanks for the update. Keep us posted.

Michael: Don't know how I missed that in the second Post?

Thanks, Rick.

rickystl · 12th July 2012, 09:43 PM

Pneumatic un-loader for flintlock. In case you and your associates are interested. Rick.

Norman McCormick · 27th July 2012, 02:58 PM

Hi,
Attempts to remove whatever is in the bore have so far been unsuccessful but this piece of material, wadding?, and what might be small pieces of hard 'grease' was attached to the screw upon withdrawal. I would appreciate your opinions on it. I will make a tool with a deeper thread and have another go!
Regards,
Norman.

Gavin Nugent · 27th July 2012, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Attempts to remove whatever is in the bore have so far been unsuccessful but this piece of material, wadding?, and what might be small pieces of hard 'grease' was attached to the screw upon withdrawal. I would appreciate your opinions on it. I will make a tool with a deeper thread and have another go!
Regards,
Norman.

Keep going mate.

This looks like the same flaxen material used in the maufacture of old sword canes. Perhaps this is part of an old late 19th/early 20th century method of deactivation.

Gav

Norman McCormick · 27th July 2012, 04:43 PM

Hi Gav,
You could be right, don't know whether it is an old 'de-ac' plug or a ball and charge. Never having had a sword cane what is the flaxen material used for? Thanks for having a look.
My Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 27th August 2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Attempts to remove whatever is in the bore have so far been unsuccessful but this piece of material, wadding?, and what might be small pieces of hard 'grease' was attached to the screw upon withdrawal. I would appreciate your opinions on it. I will make a tool with a deeper thread and have another go!
Regards,
Norman.

They were firing their Sporrans at us pesky English!

Norman McCormick · 27th August 2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

They were firing their Sporrans at us pesky English!

Gene, Gene, Gene, ya dinna reelly think a Son or Daughter of Caledonia would hurl anythin wi coins in it at anybuddy, never mind an ENGLISHMAN

and another thing before ye ask, there is nothing at all worn under the Kilt it's all in perfect working order.

7th July 2012, 07:54 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	17thC Scottish Snaphaunce Musket Hi, First of all I would like to thank Michael (Matchlock) for his time, patience and expertise in helping me with this musket. I will really have to let the photographs do the talking. A second half of the 17thC Scottish snaphaunce lock with possibly an earlier barrel, almost complete. A "Wee Beauty". Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 8th July 2012 at 01:48 PM.

8th July 2012, 01:51 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Some more photos of the barrel stamps and the underside decoration around the trigger. Barrel length 31 3/4 inches total length 44 1/2 inches bore just shy of 3/4 inch. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 8th July 2012 at 02:09 PM.

8th July 2012, 08:47 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Rick, I thought you would like this one. I must say I never imagined I would ever snag a piece like this. It's really nice to hold and the dark areas on the stock are worn smooth from use. There is a 2 inch difference between where the ramrod reaches down the barrel and the touchhole so maybe it's still loaded!! I did source it locally and it's been lying around in a relatively dry atmosphere, not easy up here, for a long time. I'm of the same opinion re the holes in the stock and I've attached an early decorated plate which if you look closely at the rifle sling it looks to be attached in similar areas. You are very welcome to use any of the photos and if there is any particular ones that you want and are not here just ask. Thanks again for your interest. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 8th July 2012 at 09:14 PM.

9th July 2012, 04:45 PM	#12
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Michael, I was hoping you would come in with a detailed description. Having had more time to look at the piece I get the impression that the lock may not be the first that has been on this gun. The attached photo suggests to my untrained eye that a large washer or a larger headed screw/bolt was once there but this may be as a result of the screw/bolt being replaced rather than an attachment for a different barrel, as I can see no evidence of a trigger guard ever having been fitted to the stock it gives me more hope that the stock may originally be of Scottish origin rather than continental. I have sent photographs to Mr Jonathan Ferguson curator of firearms at the Royal Armouries who is going to confer with Mr Robert Woosnam-Savage who co-wrote a book on Scottish firearms so hopefully definitive information may be coming soon. Many thanks for your kind words and interest. Kind Regards, Norman. P.S. When I think about it the composition could be any combination of lock,stock and barrel Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 9th July 2012 at 05:22 PM.

9th July 2012, 07:18 PM	#15
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Michael, Apart from the obvious the lock on this rifle is the closest in details I can see to mine. On a separate note, there are two small square holes, non identical, and two very small round ones in the rear of the butt. Are you aware of this style of butt occasionally having a separate buttplate maybe attached with hand made square nails, or could it have been a butt extension as we have these days for different sized shooters. Being a regular shooter I know just how important this sizing is. Just some thoughts. Kind Regards, Norman. Attached Images

8th July 2012, 03:11 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Ah, great stuff, Norman. I shouldn't tell you that, affraid you get too vain . ... But alright, you deserve it

8th July 2012, 08:13 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Norman!! Thanks for the PM heads-up. OHHHHHH my goodness. A "Wee Beauty" is certainly correct. What a fantastic find!! Except for the middle and rear barrel bands, it looks complete. Even the trumpet shaped ramrod. The lock design and partial fishtail butt stock looks sooooo Scottish. I must admit that I'm jealous with envy that you saw this gun before I did. Thanks for the great photos. Hope you don't mind me saving these in my photo library? The lock appears complete. The sear assembly seems to be a slight variation from others I've seen. What a wonderful, interesting gun. I'm glad you were able to enlist Michael's expertise on this. Did you locate this gun in Scotland? Again, my congratulations. A wonderful early piece that just reeks with history. My hats off. Rick.

8th July 2012, 08:17 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Just noticed the two holes in the stock. One at the wrist, and the other where the middle barrel band use to be. This indicates that this gun may have had a sling installed at some point in the past? Rick.

8th July 2012, 08:56 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	What a fascinating plate. Is it yours, Norman ?

8th July 2012, 09:14 PM	#11
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Norman. Yes, the gun may indeed still have a load in the barrel. Of course, this won't be the first old gun that was aquired still loaded. Since I have the tools needed to safely extract that load (or other obstruction) I suggest you send the gun to my house for analysis and unloading. It shouldn't take me more than a couple years. When you lower the rod into the barrel, does it feel/sound like it's hitting something solid or soft? Rick.

9th July 2012, 05:26 PM	#13
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Norman, Agreed: in the worst given case the item may be composite from three different main parts, and the brass-filled touch hole may conceal the fact that the barrel was converted to (and rebuilt from) percussion - in which case the lock cannot belong. Also the crispness of the surfaces of barrel and stock differs greatly from that of the much better preserved lock, showing that the first two have seem much more use (and abrasion). Telling from your lines, my intuitive initial premonitions seem justifiable. From all I have learned in over 30 years of closest study is to be extremely careful as soon as an item does not look completely characteristic in all its single aspects; riveted screws or pins and crude alterations have become amber lights to me: the only explanation is that somebody intended to prohibit others from dismantling the gun for research - which is completely contradictory to the fact that all main parts of a gun must be easy to dismantle in case when cleaning or repair is needed. On the other hand, you certainly did not overpay the piece, and some of the scans I attached show that trigger guards were used on both English and Scottish snaphaunce guns from the end of the 16th c. Best, m

9th July 2012, 05:52 PM	#14
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Michael, Yes, I think it would be wise to 'hang fire' and first see what transpires with the Royal Armouries. There are some possibilities re the less used lock, it does show some scraping on the strike plate so it has been used albeit a little. After the 1715 rebellion and especially after the 1745 all weapons were proscribed by the victors and weapons were destroyed some being concealed and as you know older technology lasted a lot longer in Scotland than south of the border. Could have been little used and then hidden!! who knows time will tell I hope. Kind Regards, Norman.

9th July 2012, 10:25 PM	#16
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Norman, Butt plates did not normally appear before the 1580's on European military muskets, and they were made of very thin hammered iron attached not by nails but by tacks, with small, irregularly shaped but mostly rectangular heads. Attached are details of a very fine German (Suhl) matchlock musket, ca. 1590-1600, overall length 1.67 m, weight 8.4 kgs, preserved in as-new condition; author's collection. Only during the first half of the 18th c., butt plates got thicker and more figured, made of either iron or brass - depending on the material employed for the rest of the mounts. Best, Michael Attached Images

9th July 2012, 11:08 PM	#17
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Michael, Photo of the rear of the butt. Got it too, iron butt plates used to protect the wood rather than an aid to shooting. My Regards, Norman. P.S. You can see where the bottom edge has been knocked off at some time and repaired. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 9th July 2012 at 11:20 PM.

9th July 2012, 11:29 PM	#18
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Yeah, These look like tack holes. m

11th July 2012, 07:10 PM	#20
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Norman! And Michael! This has been a great Thread to read. Really enjoying this. Thank you both. A couple of notes: The brazing at the touch hole area is curious. Could it be that the barrel was used on a previous gun? The current gun and lock combination requiring the vent hole in a different position? But, as Michael said, it is curious that it was done so crudely. Hmmmmm. Norman: If you have an opportunity would you let me know some dimensions? Overall length, barrel length and caliber, lock length and width, etc. Only if you get the chance. Thanks. Rick.

11th July 2012, 08:16 PM	#21
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Rick, I have posted all my assumptions concerning the history of the barrel and lock, and Norman has given some measurements in post # 2. Best, m

9th July 2012, 11:36 PM	#22
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Michael, Just a thought looking at your lovely matchlock. Is the stock on my musket of a type that may have been used for a matchlock prior to the present configuration. Could explain the lack of trigger guard evidence rather than a particularly Scottish connection which would make your Dutch/English idea re the stock more likely. Could have been rehashed up here so still no trigger guard. My Regards, Norman.

12th July 2012, 03:26 PM	#23
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, I have now received a reply to my enquiry from the Royal Armouries in Leeds. British snaphaunce C1700 based on lock style and barrel, what appears to be London private proofmark on the barrel C1702 although I get the impression that this is probably open to conjecture. Clearly not classically Scottish therefore not necessarily Scottish. The Scottish aspect is obviously not provable either way but I would like to think, based on info already received, the possibility is there. I'm in the process of arranging the removal of what I think is a ball and charge still in the musket with a muzzleloading member of my rifle club and I will post the results. I am delighted to have this piece in my collection regardless of pedigree and I would like to thank you all for your kind words and continued interest. Should any further information come to light I will of course let you know. My Regards, Norman. P.S. A light application of gun oil and 'hey presto' the lock is working just fine sliding pan cover and all. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 12th July 2012 at 04:40 PM.

12th July 2012, 08:35 PM	#24
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Norman: Thanks for the update. Keep us posted. Michael: Don't know how I missed that in the second Post? Thanks, Rick.

12th July 2012, 09:43 PM	#25
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Pneumatic un-loader for flintlock. In case you and your associates are interested. Rick. Attached Images

27th July 2012, 02:58 PM	#26
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Attempts to remove whatever is in the bore have so far been unsuccessful but this piece of material, wadding?, and what might be small pieces of hard 'grease' was attached to the screw upon withdrawal. I would appreciate your opinions on it. I will make a tool with a deeper thread and have another go! Regards, Norman. Attached Images

27th July 2012, 04:43 PM	#28
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Gav, You could be right, don't know whether it is an old 'de-ac' plug or a ball and charge. Never having had a sword cane what is the flaxen material used for? Thanks for having a look. My Regards, Norman.