Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 25th September 2017, 06:34 PM   #1
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 836
Default Where is this hallmark coming from ?

The sabre was found in Africa (see the handle). Light, springy blade, which, I think, is of European origin. Could anybody help with identification ? Thanks.
Attached Images
  
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2017, 10:58 AM   #2
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

No luck so far, Martin
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2017, 12:22 PM   #3
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 836
Default

Dear Fernando, thank you for your sympathy ...

Maybe somebody knows and will come later
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2017, 11:18 PM   #4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

I noted a peculiar similarity on an Indian sign....A Parrot !

Kamedev on parakeet.
Attached Images
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2017, 12:00 AM   #5
Iain
Member
 
Iain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 1,680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I noted a peculiar similarity on an Indian sign....A Parrot !

Kamedev on parakeet.
The bird depicted on Martin's sword is a grouse or very similar game bird. The head and tail are distinctive.
Iain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2017, 01:34 AM   #6
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Martin, very nice blade which looks to be Eastern European hanger or sabre blade of 17th c, possibly into 18th. This cartouche is not a hallmark, but probably a talismanic device used in these regions and known loosely as a 'Transylvanian knot'.
Devices such as this along with often unintelligible words are often found in these kinds of flourishes. The blades if I understand correctly were often Styrian,sometimes Polish, but hard to say for sure.

The type of bird is really not relevant but could be a grouse as noted with that swirl atop the head.

I think Ariel was the one who located this data in a very obscure book,
"Huszarfegyerek a 15-17, Szadzadban " (Hussar Weapons of 15-17th c.).
A very good possibility this may have been such a hussar sabre blade which ended up being transmitted into the trade blade context.
Hungarian blades were very highly regarded in Arabia, and this one may well have entered there, from there traded into the networks which entered African entrepots.

VERY intriguing blade with some great potential!!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2017, 11:03 AM   #7
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 836
Default

Thank you all for your inputs. Coincidentally, I also received some reaction from experienced colleague from the Czech Army Museum in Prague, this morning.

So, he says:
Based purely on the construction of the blade: Time of producrtion between 1750 and 1830 (I think that also the style of the engraving corresponds to this age). In any case it is European blade, very probably one of that time German states or Switzerland, but Russia cannot be excluded (since Russian sabers had similar features like Prussian ones). In no case French or Austrian. Very probably made as infantry sabre for grenadiers or sappers. They did not comment the engraved bird. Their opinion is close-out sale of old stock form Europe to "third markets".
Martin
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2017, 11:13 AM   #8
Martin Lubojacky
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 836
Default

Just to add: I was really very surprised by the quality of the blade. Despite the signs of long time practical use, despite the long time in Africa, the blade is still, nearly obsolutely, straight and springy (also light). And the steel is,I would say, relatively hard in comparision with other blades I have seen.
Martin Lubojacky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2017, 04:46 PM   #9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

Jim I recall that thread and went in after this one ... I wonder is it Hungarian....?

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th October 2017 at 05:10 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2017, 04:46 PM   #10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

See http://www.antiquesword101.com/islamic-indian-art.php#!/ Antique-16th-century-Hungarian-Sword-Blade-With-18th-century-Turkish-Ottoman-Hilt/p/84277162

The bird is similar...although it is remembered that it is Mythical and could vary in form and artists impression. The foliage represents the upper world and the Turul perches on top of it. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turul
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th October 2017 at 05:08 PM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.