Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 23rd November 2014, 01:11 PM   #1
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default 19c. silver inlayed Indian axe for comment

it's coming to stay with me. vendor esst. it from 1850-1899.

(not my arm, by the way )
Attached Images
     
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2014, 10:44 PM   #2
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

it arrived today, heavy at 680 grams (1.5 lb.), haft length 62 cm long by 2 cm. diameter.. blade is 20 cm. top point to bottom one. spike is 10 cm. blade and spike are sharp. nice patina. silver koftgari a bit worn in places. nice.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th November 2014, 03:50 PM   #3
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
Thumbs up

IT LOOKS LIKE A NICE EXAMPLE OF THE FORM. ITS NOT MY FIELD SO ABOUT ALL I CAN SAY IS INDO-PERSIAN AX DOES SHOW SOME PATINA TO THE SHAFT AND THE BLADE INLAY ABOUT NORMAL FOR THESE. YOU DON'T SEE AS MANY WITH THIS SHAPE OF BACK SPIKE AS THE DOUBLE BALDED OR HAMMER BACK FORMS SEEM TO BE MORE PREVALENT . PERHAPS A FORUM MEMBER WITH MORE KNOWLEDGE CAN PIN IT DOWN AS TO WHERE AND WHEN IT WAS MADE. GOOD LUCK
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2014, 10:00 AM   #4
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

handling it i wonder if there may have once been some sort of cord, leather, or wire wrapping on the haft to improve the grip, which has come off, or is it just that my hands are bigger than theirs?
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2014, 04:44 PM   #5
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,713
Default

Yes, most but not all Indians have a finer bone structure that the Europeans, you only need to take a tulwar or a katar in your hand to realise this.
Nice axe by the way :-).
Jens
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2014, 06:28 AM   #6
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
handling it i wonder if there may have once been some sort of cord, leather, or wire wrapping on the haft to improve the grip, which has come off, or is it just that my hands are bigger than theirs?
Actually the shaft of Indian weapons can be of a much smaller diameter than yours, some are almost imposible to grip properly. I seems to me that some must have been wrapped with leather etc but very little evidence of this exists. I know of one example which still shows a leather cover.
Attached Images
   
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2014, 11:30 AM   #7
Edward F
Member
 
Edward F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 54
Default

Small handed people metal wrap at the bottom of the haft is the grip ,the wood haft would have been most likely covered in a velvet like cloth.Nice axe you have.Pictured similar example all steel
Attached Images
 
Edward F is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2014, 01:08 PM   #8
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward F
Small handed people metal wrap at the bottom of the haft is the grip ,the wood haft would have been most likely covered in a velvet like cloth.Nice axe you have.Pictured similar example all steel
Edward, these are very similar to each other, any idea were the one you posted came from, and do you have any more pictures of the other weapons shown in the backround, it looks like there is a war hammer on the upper right side. I have included an Indian war hammer that looks very similar in design, all of these are possibly from the same region.
Attached Images
  
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2014, 11:25 PM   #9
Edward F
Member
 
Edward F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 54
Default axe

estcrh I cant be sure where my axe is from it could be a sudan copy of indo Persian? Posted another axe that is similar in construction to Krockew axe.Posted the two war hammers.
Attached Images
     
Edward F is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2014, 01:11 PM   #10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default Jewish Axes of the Persian Sufi/ Dervish sect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
it's coming to stay with me. vendor esst. it from 1850-1899.

(not my arm, by the way )

Salaams kronckew, Please have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...jewish+dervish

These axes were also carried about by wandering Dervish Sufi in and before the 1920s in Persia. Amazingly they are shown in a reference at http://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2013/...dervishes-1922/ pictured with Jewish members of that group amalgamating Jewish and Muslim concepts into their traditions. The axe in this case said to have been carried as a defensive weapon in the right hand to ward off wild animals etc... and as part of their regalia..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2014, 03:30 AM   #11
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

These axes were also carried about by wandering Dervish Sufi in and before the 1920s in Persia. Amazingly they are shown in a reference at http://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2013/...dervishes-1922/ pictured with Jewish members of that group amalgamating Jewish and Muslim concepts into their traditions. The axe in this case said to have been carried as a defensive weapon in the right hand to ward off wild animals etc... and as part of their regalia..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim, I have not seen the particular type of axe that Kronckew and Edward posted being carried by Dervishes. I have seen that same form coming from Sudan of all places. Two photos of Sudanese axes. Photo of two Persian Jewish Dervishes with axes.
Attached Images
   
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2014, 06:51 AM   #12
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

very interesting - especially the 1st one,looks much like my naked one. the area just below the head and just above the butt have a covering - leather? the central haft section looks like it has yet another thin cover of some type. the 2nd seems to have a much thicker set of clothes. mine has no calligraphy, the decorative motif is purely flora.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2014, 07:44 AM   #13
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
very interesting - especially the 1st one,looks much like my naked one. the area just below the head and just above the butt have a covering - leather? the central haft section looks like it has yet another thin cover of some type. the 2nd seems to have a much thicker set of clothes. mine has no calligraphy, the decorative motif is purely flora.
The first one is described as being "reptile" skin, the second as crocodile. This is fairly common for Sudanese axes.

Here is one more Sudanese axe of the same type. Now if this is actually an Indian style axe how is it that the Sudanese came to use the same style? These axe could have been introduced in the early 1880s when Indian troops in the service of England helped the Khedive of Egypt regain control of Egypt after a military coup.

Quote:
The 20th Punjab Infantry in Egypt, Circa 1882, tired of the corruption of the Khedive of Egypt's regime, the Egyptian Army rose under Urabi Pasha. Unfortunately the Suez Canal ran through his country, the British sent an army to restore the old regime. On 13 Sept1882, an Anglo-Indian force crushed the Egyptian Army at the battle of Tel-el-Kebir. The 20th Punjab formed the left forward battalion of the Indian Army contingent's attack which the Egyptians proved incapable of stopping.
Attached Images
  
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2014, 06:22 AM   #14
estcrh
Member
 
estcrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward F
estcrh I cant be sure where my axe is from it could be a sudan copy of indo Persian? Posted another axe that is similar in construction to Krockew axe.Posted the two war hammers.
Edward, your axe does not look overtly Sudanese to me, your war hammers are interesting, very similar on construction but with very different heads, they would seem to be constricted in the same region but I have seen the one with a spike head on the right being described as Indian and the one on the left with a hammer being described as Ottoman / Persian. The last axe you posted is unusual as well, I do not think I have seen that exact type, possibly Persian, maybe some other forum member has another opinion.
Attached Images
  
estcrh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.