Sassanian swords

Sidney · 22nd June 2010, 01:47 PM

I have any questions about sassanian swords.

I know a lot of pictures of splendid ful metal scabards and hilts as this

I would like to know what blade had this swords. Single, or double edge? I have found only one picture of sassanian blade - it is probabaly double edge blade with middle point - see here

Are there sassanian swords with single edge blade like this contemporary chines blades? /I think Tang dynasty blades/

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2010, 07:32 AM

This illustration is of one of the best known examples of these Sassanian straight swords, and I believe is considered Dailamite of 6th-7th c. These were elite infantry of regions of northern Iran. The scabbard is in a 'feathered' motif associated with the varanga, one the mythical Iranian birds such as the Simorgh, very griffin like.

It is my understanding that blades of these swords that have been found are in too compromised condition to determine dynamics of use, but the type of grips seen on them seem to suggest single edged blades. The pistol type grip with indentations for index finger, another larger for remaining fingers and downward angle for more forceful strike suggest this type use.

While these swords are thought to have developed from Parthian predecessors, the earlier straight blade swords of China certainly must be considered in influence as well.

Sidney · 23rd June 2010, 08:11 AM

It is good note, thank you very much

I would like to try make that sword, and this Tang blades are very beautiful for this type of weapon.

It is interesting, that grip in case this gold plated sword from first picture is upside down - it has reverse tilt and finger indentations are upside down with respect to hang-up elements of scabard.

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2010, 12:40 AM

Actually it would seem that the sword is upside down by conventional standards, however it is believed this was a 'quick draw' type position, where the sword was withdrawn edge up. Caucasian shashkas and Imperial Russian swords were worn in this manner, and I cannot offhand think of the other instances where swords were worn edge upward (Im sure others will note).

I believe the Metropolitan Museum in New York has one of these, and might furnish details which might be more helpful for purposes of reconstructing a blade for one of these...interesting project and I hope you will keep us posted.

Rick · 24th June 2010, 02:39 AM

Appearances would indicate the same type of mount for this Afghan Sabre :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Mazar+Sharif

tom hyle · 24th June 2010, 06:20 PM

Japan, most obviously. European and Afrasian cultures seem to often have edge-up carry as an occasional option, often seeming idiosincratic, but IMHO an ancient an long enduring but just rarely poplular custom. The Germanic saex was often/usually worn edge-upwards. Traditionally in Europe Military commanders would often have their men dress or arm after their own (the commander's) idiosyncrasies, especially as to weapon selection, sharpening, loading details, etc.
Edge-up carrying keeps the edge from wearing against the sheath and getting dulled.
I salute your cutling ambitions, Sidney.

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2010, 11:32 PM

I have finally found some detail in notes and would like to correct the speculative comments I made in my earlier posts.

Apparantly this gold mounted sword shown by Sidney, with the feathered mounts is likely one of a number of these swords, from 5th-6th century AD with northern Iran noted as likely origin.

The one I mentioned, which is in gold mounts is in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and is total of six in gold; there are two in silver, making a total of 8. It is noted that these are close enough in style to have come from the same workshop, of likely princely status.

Of the total, five are in Switzerland, one (noted) is in Paris at the Louvre, and one is at the museum of Tenri University in Tokyo.

The sword in the Metropolitan is double edged, as are the others.

There is however another in a private collection in New York, in which the badly corroded blade is suggested to be single edged (from Xrays taken) as well as by presumption of writers by the shape of the hilt and slightly curved blade. This one, if considered one of the overall type, would make a total of nine known.

These were apparantly cavalry swords, the quickdraw P mounted suspensions reaffirmed.

The feathering and scaled designs in the motif are noted as of style seen in Hun jewelry from Hungary of the period, as the eagle was a tribal symbol with the Huns. Although these are not specifically considered Hun swords, the styling is 'of the type' so in this period may have associations. Apparantly Huns of the period wore a long double edged sword on the left side and a single edged short sword at the right, and these were often en suite.
These comments are found in "Waltharius", one of the Nibelungen cycle epics in Latin by a Swiss monk in 10th century.
This type arrangement is compared to 17th century Hungarian hussars wearing a sabre on the belt, and estoc on the saddle under the leg on the right (Nickel, 1973).

Regarding the original question, there appear to be a total of eight of this type sword of the same period, perhaps even same workshop. The blades, though in varying degree of compromised condition are noted to all be double edged.

Another sword of slight variation, but decidedly close enough in form to be plausibly included in the group has what appears to be a single edged blade..perhaps later version with the noted feature variations suggesting same.

broadaxe · 25th June 2010, 11:46 AM

I was lucky enough to inspect and hold a Sassanian sword several years ago, personally. I do not know if it is an additional one to the number quoted by Jim, but back then I did my own math and I do think it is an unpublished item. The owner (private collector), however, was reluctant to give provenance. The sword is real to my best knowledge, having a very similar feathered scabbard, angled hilt with a sub-guard. the fitting were silver, in good overall shape, existing blade though badly corroded but obviously single edged with a slight upcurving point. That sword was amazingly comfortable to hold!

tom hyle · 25th June 2010, 01:27 PM

It's too bad so much important material is lost to study because its rightful owners have to fear such silly laws and official arrogance over who can own what or what is supposedly a crime or what will be stolen from you if you're caught with it. Such silliness to hold back our pleasure and knowledge!

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2010, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

I was lucky enough to inspect and hold a Sassanian sword several years ago, personally. I do not know if it is an additional one to the number quoted by Jim, but back then I did my own math and I do think it is an unpublished item. The owner (private collector), however, was reluctant to give provenance. The sword is real to my best knowledge, having a very similar feathered scabbard, angled hilt with a sub-guard. the fitting were silver, in good overall shape, existing blade though badly corroded but obviously single edged with a slight upcurving point. That sword was amazingly comfortable to hold!

This sounds like the one which I mentioned that was actually published in Nickel (1973) as part of an article on these and Hun swords. Nickel was the curator at the Met, and the sword (with single edge determined only by xray as it was, I believe, corroded in scabbard), the New York collector was named Erickson.

I agree, so much is lost to fear of repurcussions from legal issue, being targeted by thieves, etc. and equally by academic suppression in the case of material guarded for eventual (?) publication. Too often contributions to discussions are less than forthcoming as individuals do not wish to divulge findings or information they may use privately.

22nd June 2010, 01:47 PM	#1
Sidney Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 12	Sassanian swords I have any questions about sassanian swords. I know a lot of pictures of splendid ful metal scabards and hilts as this I would like to know what blade had this swords. Single, or double edge? I have found only one picture of sassanian blade - it is probabaly double edge blade with middle point - see here Are there sassanian swords with single edge blade like this contemporary chines blades? /I think Tang dynasty blades/

24th June 2010, 06:20 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Japan, most obviously. European and Afrasian cultures seem to often have edge-up carry as an occasional option, often seeming idiosincratic, but IMHO an ancient an long enduring but just rarely poplular custom. The Germanic saex was often/usually worn edge-upwards. Traditionally in Europe Military commanders would often have their men dress or arm after their own (the commander's) idiosyncrasies, especially as to weapon selection, sharpening, loading details, etc. Edge-up carrying keeps the edge from wearing against the sheath and getting dulled. I salute your cutling ambitions, Sidney. Last edited by tom hyle; 24th June 2010 at 06:26 PM. Reason: adding

23rd June 2010, 07:32 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	This illustration is of one of the best known examples of these Sassanian straight swords, and I believe is considered Dailamite of 6th-7th c. These were elite infantry of regions of northern Iran. The scabbard is in a 'feathered' motif associated with the varanga, one the mythical Iranian birds such as the Simorgh, very griffin like. It is my understanding that blades of these swords that have been found are in too compromised condition to determine dynamics of use, but the type of grips seen on them seem to suggest single edged blades. The pistol type grip with indentations for index finger, another larger for remaining fingers and downward angle for more forceful strike suggest this type use. While these swords are thought to have developed from Parthian predecessors, the earlier straight blade swords of China certainly must be considered in influence as well.

23rd June 2010, 08:11 AM	#3
Sidney Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 12	It is good note, thank you very much I would like to try make that sword, and this Tang blades are very beautiful for this type of weapon. It is interesting, that grip in case this gold plated sword from first picture is upside down - it has reverse tilt and finger indentations are upside down with respect to hang-up elements of scabard.

24th June 2010, 12:40 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	Actually it would seem that the sword is upside down by conventional standards, however it is believed this was a 'quick draw' type position, where the sword was withdrawn edge up. Caucasian shashkas and Imperial Russian swords were worn in this manner, and I cannot offhand think of the other instances where swords were worn edge upward (Im sure others will note). I believe the Metropolitan Museum in New York has one of these, and might furnish details which might be more helpful for purposes of reconstructing a blade for one of these...interesting project and I hope you will keep us posted.

24th June 2010, 02:39 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	Appearances would indicate the same type of mount for this Afghan Sabre : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Mazar+Sharif

24th June 2010, 11:32 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	I have finally found some detail in notes and would like to correct the speculative comments I made in my earlier posts. Apparantly this gold mounted sword shown by Sidney, with the feathered mounts is likely one of a number of these swords, from 5th-6th century AD with northern Iran noted as likely origin. The one I mentioned, which is in gold mounts is in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and is total of six in gold; there are two in silver, making a total of 8. It is noted that these are close enough in style to have come from the same workshop, of likely princely status. Of the total, five are in Switzerland, one (noted) is in Paris at the Louvre, and one is at the museum of Tenri University in Tokyo. The sword in the Metropolitan is double edged, as are the others. There is however another in a private collection in New York, in which the badly corroded blade is suggested to be single edged (from Xrays taken) as well as by presumption of writers by the shape of the hilt and slightly curved blade. This one, if considered one of the overall type, would make a total of nine known. These were apparantly cavalry swords, the quickdraw P mounted suspensions reaffirmed. The feathering and scaled designs in the motif are noted as of style seen in Hun jewelry from Hungary of the period, as the eagle was a tribal symbol with the Huns. Although these are not specifically considered Hun swords, the styling is 'of the type' so in this period may have associations. Apparantly Huns of the period wore a long double edged sword on the left side and a single edged short sword at the right, and these were often en suite. These comments are found in "Waltharius", one of the Nibelungen cycle epics in Latin by a Swiss monk in 10th century. This type arrangement is compared to 17th century Hungarian hussars wearing a sabre on the belt, and estoc on the saddle under the leg on the right (Nickel, 1973). Regarding the original question, there appear to be a total of eight of this type sword of the same period, perhaps even same workshop. The blades, though in varying degree of compromised condition are noted to all be double edged. Another sword of slight variation, but decidedly close enough in form to be plausibly included in the group has what appears to be a single edged blade..perhaps later version with the noted feature variations suggesting same.

25th June 2010, 11:46 AM	#8
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I was lucky enough to inspect and hold a Sassanian sword several years ago, personally. I do not know if it is an additional one to the number quoted by Jim, but back then I did my own math and I do think it is an unpublished item. The owner (private collector), however, was reluctant to give provenance. The sword is real to my best knowledge, having a very similar feathered scabbard, angled hilt with a sub-guard. the fitting were silver, in good overall shape, existing blade though badly corroded but obviously single edged with a slight upcurving point. That sword was amazingly comfortable to hold!

25th June 2010, 01:27 PM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It's too bad so much important material is lost to study because its rightful owners have to fear such silly laws and official arrogance over who can own what or what is supposedly a crime or what will be stolen from you if you're caught with it. Such silliness to hold back our pleasure and knowledge!