Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

[AndreaFeraro89]

Thank you to all for the warm welcome! @Fernando

Ok a lot to discuss here

@Jens Nordlunde for sure your is such a rare find!
CIVIDAL DE BELUN is a mark that proves the sword has been made in Belluno.
Maybe part of a big stock for foreign countries.
In my personal opinion this mark is indicating the collaboration of many swordmakers to supply to that big require.
We must not forget that Venice for centuries has been the great "Door" for Middle and Far East.
Every type of goods arrive and leave Venice. Included steel and weapons (arms and armour).
As explained before, water has been the key of everithing for centuries, from the rivers, to the lagoon, to the Mediterranean Sea.
The connection with middle east has been so strong for centuries, I have found some Andrea Feraro blades mounted in arab swords.
There is a funny thing to say, and I will explain better this point about Caino swordmakers later.
The Venice Steel, called by Venetians "iron for weapons" (ferro d'arme) was considered for centuries one of the best steel avaiable on the market for his charateristics, not only for the ore from what it has made, but also for the process to make it.
In the first of XVI century, the arab scientist and engineer Taqi al-Din ibn Ma’ruf (Damascus, 1526–Istanbul, 1585), wrote a book about clockmaking.
On this book, The Brightest Stars for the Construction of the Mechanical Clocks, he says that the only steel suitable for clock springs is the Venice one because is very resistant and does not break.
Venice laws about the commerce and production of this steel were very restrictive, it was a sort of government "industrial secret".

@Victrix
-Milan: Poldi Pezzoli Museum (important museum from private collection), Bagatti Valsecchi, Castello Sforzesco
-Turin: Armeria Reale in the Royal Palace of the Savoy family has astonishing pieces included the famous San Maurice sword: a XIII century sword in perfect condition (seems has been made yesterday)
-Brescia: Marzoli Collection (another important museum from a private collection), here is the famous "Brescia spadona" tha Albion take as a model for his copy.
-Venice: Palazzo Ducale Armory (Doge Palace), Correr Collection, Ca' Pesaro (one of the most important collection of Japanese Arms and Armour in Europe)
-Churburg: Castel Coira Armory, a noble family armoury that exhist since XIV century, if you like armours this is the sancta sanctorum.
-Florence: Stibbert Museum (tons of armours and weapons in a neogothic villa made by a English nobleman) for sure one of the most important private collection in the world (second bigger collection in the world of japanese arms and armour), Bargello Museum (a lot of very very interesting pieces, many of them ver rare), Museo Della Caccia Cerreto Guidi (same as Bargello)
-Mantua: Museo Diocesano Francesco Gonzaga, the biggest collection of XV century italian armours in the world.
-Rome: Castel Sant'Angelo Armory (Pope armory), Collezione Odescalchi (there is some interesting swords here, included a Pietro da Formicano spadone)
-Naples: Museo Capo di Monte (original battle of Pavia tapestry, Farnese and Borbonic armory)

And About Caino
Caino is a little village in the Garza Valley, on the Alps section closer to Brescia, this little valley is closer to the bigger Val Trompia valley famous for firearms makers (Beretta the most famous).
From the XV century Brescia has been part of the Venice Republic and with his valleys (Val Camonica and Val Trompia) ha become the bigger siderurgic compartment of Italy.
So the two big centers of steel production in Venice Republic have been two: -Brescia Valleys with theyr big manganese rich siderite mines (same quality as near Belluno)
-Mines of Colle Santa Lucia and Fursil near Belluno, blast furnaces were in Zoldo, where a big community of furnace masters from Brescia has been established to run furnaces and fineries in the "brescian way".
The only difference has been the quantity of ore extracted between the two areas and so the quantity of steel produced. Mines in Brescian area are much more rich and bigger than the Belluno mines.

In the XIII century, in that valleys has been developed a new smelting process, called the "brescian method" that is a way to convert cast iron from blast furnaces to steel or iron with a finery (this is called indirect process).
Probably the earliest blast furnaces has been built here, making possible the production of enormous quantities of iron and steel.
The development of the "indirect process" of steel making has been an enormous technological revolution, to see another siderurgical revolution like this we will must wait for the industrial revolution in XVIII century.
Compared to the "old" technology of bloomery furnace (direct method) the brescian process has imporved not only quantity but also quality of steel produced.
Making possible that great development of arms and armour production in northern Italy from XIV century.

Caino has the great advantage to be into that area, where was possible to find great quantity of hight quality steel to make blades.
The problem is that before XVI century there was no swordsmithing tradition here like in Belluno area, so the owners of the workshops (keep in mind that in medieval time owner of the workshop rarely match with master that work in it) decide to convert theyr production (mainly agricultural tools, and papermaking mills) into swordmaking.
To do this they ask to some Belluno area masters to come in Caino and to start to run activity making swords in theyr workshops.
So Caino, has become a swordmakin center in XVI for the fact that some masters moved there from Feltre, Belluno, Vittorio Veneto and other places closer to the triangle.

@cornelistromp beautiful example of storta! There is a very similar blade in Poldi Pezzoli collection in Milan. I will post the photo later.

Cheers
Giovanni

[AndreaFeraro89]

Some Belluno area marks!

Cheers
Giovanni

[fernando]

Most interesting info... and useful, Giovani.
Post copied to the EARLY " MAKERS TRADE MARKS" page, situated in the "Classic Threads" front page sticky.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Giovani, this is most interesting. I too have a firangi blade with some of these stamps. The problem is, that the Indian smiths were very good at copying both blades and stamps.
Is there any indication of, how far down the blades there stamps would be - was there a standard measure from the hilt?
This could, maybe, help us to point out the copied blades/stamps.

[AndreaFeraro89]

Sorry to all for my boring talk about swordsmiths!
I want to share my knowledge and I think only knowing the story of a piece we can understand his real value.
Yes, marks are my passion too but it is important too to know who are the artisans that have put their marks on the blade.

Just my tought.

[fernando]

Your talk is not boring ... at all, Giovani; on the contrary. Just keep on sharing your knowledge, which we will deeply appreciate .
By the way, marks are also a passion of many of our members ... myself included .

[Jens Nordlunde]

One problem could be, that when the stamp got worn, the image on the blade would change. Maybe the Indian smiths did not take so much notice as they would in Italy?!!!