Spanish-American War Period Barong & Kris for Comment

laEspadaAncha · 9th August 2010, 08:38 PM

Good Fortune smiled upon me yesterday when I encountered (actually, I had gone in search of) these items at the estate sale of a recently deceased retired Naval officer. Instead of retyping the provenance, I have simply included a photo of the plaque with which these three (along with a couple other items, purchased by the person who informed me of the estate sale) had been displayed. These came out of the estate of one of the individuals named on the plaque.

In doing a little research, I found the following regarding Brig. Gen. (then Lt. Col.) Lloyd M. Brett's involvement as CO in action in Lanao that coincides with the date attributed to the original acquisition of these pieces... From The War of 1898 and U.S. Interventions, 1898-1934: an Encyclopedia:

Quote:

"In April 1900, Datu Udasan of Malabang raided the town of Callalanuan and carried away captives and loot. A detachment of 25 troopers from Parang under Lt. Col. Lloyd M. Brett, aided by Datu Piang's 100 men, was sent to look into the incident. The result was an armed clash between Piang's men and Udasan's followers, two Moro groups traditionally in conflict. The death of Datu Amirul Umbra and 14 of Udasan's men intensified the feud between the Malabang Maranaos and the Maguindanaos. U.S. officials were blamed by the Maranaos for taking sides with the Maguindanaos. The Maranao attacks on a U.S. exploring party in 1902 were traced to Maranao resentment for the killing of Datu Umbra and two kinsmen of Datu Dacula, Umbra's father."

More on the provenance to follow... In the meantime, here's a photo of the three pieces I acquired - two kris(es?) and a nice fighting barong. Additional photos of each to follow this post. If I can get a photo of the third kris purchased by the person who told me about the estate sale (I've already sent him an email requesting the same), I'll post it as well. To put their respective sizes in perspective, the barong measures (approx.) 22 inches in OAL with a 15 inch blade.

laEspadaAncha · 9th August 2010, 09:36 PM

Here's photos of the larger kris. Approximate measurements are as follows:

Blade length (measured from where the gangya meets the hilt): 22 11/16 in. / 57.6 cm
OAL: 27 7/8 in. / 70.8 cm
Gangya width: 4 3/4 in. / 12 cm
Kakatua width: 4 1/8 in. / 10.5 cm

The kakatua pommel is a finely chased yellow metal - sounds rather asinine to describe it as such - but I'm not 100% certain it is brass... its high degree of luster, combined with its silver appearance under artificial lighting has me wondering if it is an alloy other than brass - a little research on the forum returned a fixed ratio for swassa, but did this ration ever vary? The pommel is held in place with four pins/nails; the band below it - which I believe to be silver - is held into place by three pins/nails. The blade has a central fuller that runs its length. There are folding flaws visible in the fuller. Anyway, as a picture is worth a thousands words, here's 5K worth...

Dimasalang · 10th August 2010, 12:26 AM

Wow! Great piece of history you have there!

Please share more!

Battara · 10th August 2010, 01:01 AM

Lucky Crud!.....er.......I mean.......congratulations!

Seriously what a great find!

In the kris in question, the pommel looks more to be either white metal or , and I think this likely, a lower grade of silver with lots of tarnish (which can be more yellowish in lower grade silver). Needs to be polished first to see (and a jeweler could test it to be sure).

Swaasa - yes the formula for it varied between the different hues desired (and perhaps costs). Sometimes a metal can look like swaasa, but in the end is a high copper/low silver alloy to appear as swaasa.

The baka-baka appears to be copper or a copper alloy.

Intriguing for a Maguindanao to have a barong (or perhaps it is someone else's barong that the US soldier picked up as well).

Thank you so much for posting and looking forward to more posting of these newly found friends of yours! Salamat!

laEspadaAncha · 10th August 2010, 01:13 AM

Thanks, guys...

And thanks Jose for the input re: the possible answer behind the pommel's "mystery metal." I'm a little apprehensive about polishing it, but I might ask a local jeweler or pawn shop to test it from an inconspicuous place...

Quick side note - when my (late) grandfather's ship put to port in Okinawa in the 1950s, he researched the mei on a katana he had taken possession of as part of the post-war occupation force in Japan during '45-'46. It had ridden around in his Captain's locker for over a decade. He found the family to whom this sword had belonged for 500 years, and proceeded to return it to tis rightful owners. I like to think that good karma has come back time and time again in my own quests for antique arms & armor.

Dimasalang - you missed it, boss! Small house on the Shelter Island side of Pt. Loma... a lot of retired military over there - worth combing on the weekend if you have the time for estate sales.

Anyway, I'll post pics of the other two in a little bit - the barong is sa-weet! You can see the temper line in the photo above...

Battara · 10th August 2010, 01:25 AM

Although there is some slight debate on polishing silver, the big giant no no is polishing bronze . Generally speaking, polishing antique silver is fine and brings it to how it was originally to be seen. To be sure a jeweler would be able to tell you if it is silver or nickel-silver (which is not silver at all!).

ThePepperSkull · 10th August 2010, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Lucky Crud!.....er.......I mean.......congratulations!

Seriously what a great find!

In the kris in question, the pommel looks more to be either white metal or , and I think this likely, a lower grade of silver with lots of tarnish (which can be more yellowish in lower grade silver). Needs to be polished first to see (and a jeweler could test it to be sure).

Swaasa - yes the formula for it varied between the different hues desired (and perhaps costs). Sometimes a metal can look like swaasa, but in the end is a high copper/low silver alloy to appear as swaasa.

The baka-baka appears to be copper or a copper alloy.

Intriguing for a Maguindanao to have a barong (or perhaps it is someone else's barong that the US soldier picked up as well).

Thank you so much for posting and looking forward to more posting of these newly found friends of yours! Salamat!

Very interesting. Isn't the horse hoof pommel (seen in the centre in between the top kris and the barong on the bottom) typical of sulu kris as well? Perhaps he spent some time with the tausugs?

Anyways, thank you for sharing laEspadaAncha! I am still reading through your first post. I had to scroll down to see the pictures of these wonderful pieces first

laEspadaAncha · 10th August 2010, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Very interesting. Isn't the horse hoof pommel (seen in the centre in between the top kris and the barong on the bottom) typical of sulu kris as well? Perhaps he spent some time with the tausugs?

Howdy Pepper... FWIW, what little reference material I have shows several (of this) hoof-pommel kris attributed to both the Maguindanao and Maranao...

Speaking of which, here are photos of the second kris... Curious to hear your collective thoughts. I would call this a "fast" kris - less mass & weight, quicker in the hand, and obviously smaller in size than the first kris. What intrigues me about this is the braided ring/band below the pommel. It has a rich, deep yellow color and bright luster, and I think it might be - might be - gold. I think it originally sat in the groove visible just below the pommel. The ring is open at the back, and I was able to get it to sit in the groove - in which it fit perfectly. However, it has sat where you see it in the photo below for so long, the rattan exhibited too much play when I moved it, so I returned it to the position you see in the photos.

Measurements (approximate):

Blade (measured from where the gangya meets the hilt): 19 5/8 in. / 49.8 cm
OAL: 24 in. / 61 cm
Gangya width: 4 in. / 10 cm

laEspadaAncha · 10th August 2010, 03:15 AM

Lastly, here's the barong. Blade measures approx. 15 in. / 38 cm with a 22-in. / 56 cm OAL. The spine of the blade measures 51/6 of an in. / 8 mm in thickness at the hilt. The color variation you see is just that - there is very little light pitting on the blade, isolated almost completely to a small area on the back-third of the blade on the obverse. I presume the line running (roughly) parallel to the edge is a hardened edge.

All comments welcomed and appreciated...

Rick · 10th August 2010, 03:52 AM

The short ferrule on this Barung would indicate possibly a Yakan origin ?

The second kris is, to me, a bit puzzling; is it Sulu or Mindanao ?

The blade seems to carry aspects of both .

mross · 10th August 2010, 01:46 PM

Intrestingly the horse-hoof exhibits many characteristics of a twist-core. The photo's don't seem to show it but...

laEspadaAncha · 10th August 2010, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

Intrestingly the horse-hoof exhibits many characteristics of a twist-core. The photo's don't seem to show it but...

If I was more confident in my etching abilities (I have a bottle of etchant solution from RadioShack purchased for this purpose that remains unopened to this day), I would be in the process of finding out...

Rick - thanks for the Yakan suggestion & another anthropological lead to follow. Don't know when Yakan people first started settling on Mindinao, but surely there must have been established trading amongst neighboring populations?

Rick · 10th August 2010, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

If I was more confident in my etching abilities (I have a bottle of etchant solution from RadioShack purchased for this purpose that remains unopened to this day), I would be in the process of finding out...

Rick - thanks for the Yakan suggestion & another anthropological lead to follow. Don't know when Yakan people first started settling on Mindinao, but surely there must have been established trading amongst neighboring populations?

Well also, if you're going to battle you collect as many like minded people as you can, no ?

Even relatives and visitors .

Battara · 10th August 2010, 11:06 PM

The other kris seems to have a Sulu blade with a Maguindanao/Maranao hilt - there was a lot of trade between the Maguindanao and Sulu. The blade also seems to be an older form, like the late 1700s.

Have the little piece of "gold" tested by a jeweler.

The barong - not looking Yakan to me, but you never know.....

Rick · 11th August 2010, 01:11 AM

My best guess; wouldn't a Sulu Barung have a longer silver punto (ferrule)?

Ideas ?

Battara · 11th August 2010, 06:10 AM

Usually yes. However, the Yakan back crest/plume is extended on these as well. Could this be a fighting form or even a composite?

Nonoy Tan · 11th August 2010, 03:10 PM

Those are beautiful pieces! Congratulations.

Reading the provenance documentation saddens me... thinking about the moro warriors who lost their lives and weapons to a foreign force.

I hope that someday those pieces return to where they belong ... the Philippines.

laEspadaAncha · 11th August 2010, 07:01 PM

Hi Nonoy,

Thank you... I can appreciate your sadness, and reading of it, I feel a little conflicted.

It brings up a valid and sometimes contentious point of discussion - who owns ethnographic antiques? James Cuno has written a good book on the subject, entitled Who Owns Antiquity? I have a copy sitting on my coffee table, and it is in the on-deck circle once I finish reading about Percy Fawcett's last sojourn into the Amazon Basin (a one-way trip as it so happened).

The book questions the relatively recent push for returning antiquities emblematic of a people's cultural heritage to their respective - and current - incarnations of national identity. While we're not talking about antiquities in this particular case, the subject matter is still quite relevant, and while beyond the scope of the thread, IMO it deserves at the least a passing mention.

In the instance of these three edged weapons, it is pertinent to ask ourselves, "what were the circumstances surrounding their acquisition by Lt. Col. Brett?" If we are to believe the account of this particular conflict documented in historical journals, there were 25 troopers under Col. Brett's command and 100 Maguindanao warriors aligned together in a battle against an unknown number of Maranao warriors (if one accepts contemporary and long-established historical accounts, there were plenty of reasons that served as personal motivation resulting in Datu Piang aligning himself with the new American colonial power). How do we know these particular items were not presented to Lt. Col Brett by Datu Piang himself? How do we know they were not gifts originating from the Maguindanao?

One must rightfully consider other pathways by which an item of cultural importance may find its way to far and distant lands. I sell items to fund my purchases. For instance, in the past years, I have sold Civil War antiques - including swords and knives - into collections on four continents. Once could argue that they are a part of our cultural heritage, but is it not my right to sell these items to whomever I choose? Conversely, I have purchased antique American arms from collections abroad as well.

Furthermore, it deserves a passing mention that at the time, the only existence of a unified Philippines was in the eyes of imperial powers external to the archipelago who were in a struggle to exert their control over the native peoples of the islands. The Moros of the time no more considered themselves as part of a unified people with their Visayan and Luzon neighbors to the north as did the Aceh of western Sumatra consider themselves as the "same" people as the tribal Papuan people of Irian Jaya, though both are part of a "unified" Indonesia today. Their significant cultural differences far exceeded any arguably arbitrary ties of national identity assigned to them by outsiders.

Lastly, if we were to return every antique, antiquity, and object of historical significance to the current incarnation of national entities that encompass a traditionally and intricately woven tapestry of diverse people and cultural traditions, we risk losing the cultural pluralism mankind has collectively gained over the seven thousand year journey since the beginning of civilization.

As someone who has taught at a university (albeit it in mathematics, not history), I have firsthand witnessed the insular nature and ignorance of my fellow countrymen (and women). I remember when traveling in an official capacity to Vietnam in 1995, my cousin - a high school senior at the time - asked me, "Isn't that a city in China?" And she went on to attend a rather prestigious university.

Every Thanksgiving, our house fills with family. That same cousin, along with her sisters, arrive with their children. Their sons and daughters wander our house in wonder of the few strange and exotic items on our walls and shelves, and I accompany them each step of the way. I explain about the history, people, and cultures that each item represents. While I have no idea what the future holds for them, I am rather certain they will not grow up to be as ignorant as their parents. They now ask to visit the same museums their mothers have largely ignored their entire lives.

There are of course exceptions to this general rule, but in my humble opinion, not every object - whether it be a sword or an olla - is the Kohinoor diamond.

Either way, it is a valid discussion, albeit one that seems well-beyond the scope of the thread, and I can appreciate your sentiment.

Battara · 11th August 2010, 09:54 PM

I don't know where you live, but I have heard the same nonsense here in the States. "Where is Hong Kong?" my wife heard a teenager say to another.
"In Japan...duh!"

Nonoy Tan · 12th August 2010, 12:06 AM

Quote:

It brings up a valid and sometimes contentious point of discussion - who owns ethnographic antiques? James Cuno has written a good book on the subject, entitled Who Owns Antiquity? I have a copy sitting on my coffee table, and it is in the on-deck circle once I finish reading about Percy Fawcett's last sojourn into the Amazon Basin (a one-way trip as it so happened).

Dear LaEspadaAncha,

I agree with your thoughts.

It is not a simple matter and it is difficult to make generalizations on this issue. We have to treat situations on a case-to-case basis.

IMHO, the final arbiter is the collector or owner, hinged on his/her own personal conviction and beliefs. That decision is also made on a case-to-case basis.

I am glad that you have that you have these specimens, and with them the opportunity to research and gather information about their provenance. You thus have the privilege of making an informed decision that I must respect.

Battara · 12th August 2010, 02:32 AM

Or you can always donate them to the "Battara Museum"....

Rick · 12th August 2010, 02:36 AM

"To the Conqueror ... "

After that it's up to the individual collector of what remains after General Pershing's order #11(?); no ?

Not so sure we're here to talk about that; more the weapons themselves .

Who owes who is another question entirely .

A. G. Maisey · 12th August 2010, 02:48 AM

My compliments laEspadaAncha.

A beautifully put argument.

laEspadaAncha · 12th August 2010, 03:45 AM

Howdy all,

Jose - I'm over here in San Diego... I guess the lack of basic geographic knowledge is endemic, eh?

Alan - thank you for the kind words...

Nonoy & Rick, I agree with you both (and thank you Nonoy)... The one thing I would add is that I really don't consider myself an owner of any of these, or any other antiques - including edged weapons - I am lucky to have, but rather the temporary custodian of these objects, entrusted with their care and preservation for what brief time they happen to be in my possession. Rick, I apologize for the lengthy digression, and will return my focus to the weapons at hand.

Speaking of which, I received pictures of the other kris yesterday, the one that got away. All I can say is

!!

Regards,

Chris

Rick · 12th August 2010, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Howdy all,

Jose - I'm over here in San Diego... I guess the lack of basic geographic knowledge is endemic, eh?

Alan - thank you for the kind words...

Nonoy & Rick, I agree with you both (and thank you Nonoy)... The one thing I would add is that I really don't consider myself an owner of any of these, or any other antiques - including edged weapons - I am lucky to have, but rather the temporary custodian of these objects, entrusted with their care and preservation for what brief time they happen to be in my possession. Rick, I apologize for the lengthy digression, and will return my focus to the weapons at hand.

Speaking of which, I received pictures of the other kris yesterday, the one that got away. All I can say is

!!

Regards,

Chris

Chris, this is not my forum to moderate .

My suggestion was that we could become mired in discussion of who should be the heirs of these disparate swords from multiple tribes/cultures .

This is, IMO not productive nor germain .

Oh, and please share any pictures .

Rick

Battara · 12th August 2010, 11:21 PM

Oh yes, please post the other kris!

laEspadaAncha · 13th August 2010, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Oh yes, please post the other kris!

Does that mean you got my email?

Still in negotiations... once I know one way or the other, I'll post those pics to the thread.

Rick · 13th August 2010, 02:09 AM

Yes, we are all Custodians .

Looking forward to these pictures ......

Battara · 13th August 2010, 02:39 AM

Yes, NOW I have your email - mil gracias y bueno suerte!

mross · 17th August 2010, 02:38 PM

OK, the wait is killing me, are we going to ba able to see it?

10th August 2010, 01:01 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Lucky Crud!.....er.......I mean.......congratulations! Seriously what a great find! In the kris in question, the pommel looks more to be either white metal or , and I think this likely, a lower grade of silver with lots of tarnish (which can be more yellowish in lower grade silver). Needs to be polished first to see (and a jeweler could test it to be sure). Swaasa - yes the formula for it varied between the different hues desired (and perhaps costs). Sometimes a metal can look like swaasa, but in the end is a high copper/low silver alloy to appear as swaasa. The baka-baka appears to be copper or a copper alloy. Intriguing for a Maguindanao to have a barong (or perhaps it is someone else's barong that the US soldier picked up as well). Thank you so much for posting and looking forward to more posting of these newly found friends of yours! Salamat! Last edited by Battara; 10th August 2010 at 01:22 AM.

10th August 2010, 03:15 AM	#9
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Lastly, here's the barong. Blade measures approx. 15 in. / 38 cm with a 22-in. / 56 cm OAL. The spine of the blade measures 51/6 of an in. / 8 mm in thickness at the hilt. The color variation you see is just that - there is very little light pitting on the blade, isolated almost completely to a small area on the back-third of the blade on the obverse. I presume the line running (roughly) parallel to the edge is a hardened edge. All comments welcomed and appreciated... Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 10th August 2010 at 03:47 AM.

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9th August 2010, 09:36 PM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Here's photos of the larger kris. Approximate measurements are as follows: Blade length (measured from where the gangya meets the hilt): 22 11/16 in. / 57.6 cm OAL: 27 7/8 in. / 70.8 cm Gangya width: 4 3/4 in. / 12 cm Kakatua width: 4 1/8 in. / 10.5 cm The kakatua pommel is a finely chased yellow metal - sounds rather asinine to describe it as such - but I'm not 100% certain it is brass... its high degree of luster, combined with its silver appearance under artificial lighting has me wondering if it is an alloy other than brass - a little research on the forum returned a fixed ratio for swassa, but did this ration ever vary? The pommel is held in place with four pins/nails; the band below it - which I believe to be silver - is held into place by three pins/nails. The blade has a central fuller that runs its length. There are folding flaws visible in the fuller. Anyway, as a picture is worth a thousands words, here's 5K worth...

10th August 2010, 12:26 AM	#3
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Wow! Great piece of history you have there! Please share more!

10th August 2010, 01:13 AM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Thanks, guys... And thanks Jose for the input re: the possible answer behind the pommel's "mystery metal." I'm a little apprehensive about polishing it, but I might ask a local jeweler or pawn shop to test it from an inconspicuous place... Quick side note - when my (late) grandfather's ship put to port in Okinawa in the 1950s, he researched the mei on a katana he had taken possession of as part of the post-war occupation force in Japan during '45-'46. It had ridden around in his Captain's locker for over a decade. He found the family to whom this sword had belonged for 500 years, and proceeded to return it to tis rightful owners. I like to think that good karma has come back time and time again in my own quests for antique arms & armor. Dimasalang - you missed it, boss! Small house on the Shelter Island side of Pt. Loma... a lot of retired military over there - worth combing on the weekend if you have the time for estate sales. Anyway, I'll post pics of the other two in a little bit - the barong is sa-weet! You can see the temper line in the photo above...

10th August 2010, 01:25 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Although there is some slight debate on polishing silver, the big giant no no is polishing bronze . Generally speaking, polishing antique silver is fine and brings it to how it was originally to be seen. To be sure a jeweler would be able to tell you if it is silver or nickel-silver (which is not silver at all!).

10th August 2010, 03:52 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,261	The short ferrule on this Barung would indicate possibly a Yakan origin ? The second kris is, to me, a bit puzzling; is it Sulu or Mindanao ? The blade seems to carry aspects of both .

10th August 2010, 01:46 PM	#11
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Intrestingly the horse-hoof exhibits many characteristics of a twist-core. The photo's don't seem to show it but...

10th August 2010, 11:06 PM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	The other kris seems to have a Sulu blade with a Maguindanao/Maranao hilt - there was a lot of trade between the Maguindanao and Sulu. The blade also seems to be an older form, like the late 1700s. Have the little piece of "gold" tested by a jeweler. The barong - not looking Yakan to me, but you never know.....

11th August 2010, 01:11 AM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,261	My best guess; wouldn't a Sulu Barung have a longer silver punto (ferrule)? Ideas ?

11th August 2010, 06:10 AM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Usually yes. However, the Yakan back crest/plume is extended on these as well. Could this be a fighting form or even a composite?

11th August 2010, 03:10 PM	#17
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Those are beautiful pieces! Congratulations. Reading the provenance documentation saddens me... thinking about the moro warriors who lost their lives and weapons to a foreign force. I hope that someday those pieces return to where they belong ... the Philippines.

11th August 2010, 07:01 PM	#18
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nonoy, Thank you... I can appreciate your sadness, and reading of it, I feel a little conflicted. It brings up a valid and sometimes contentious point of discussion - who owns ethnographic antiques? James Cuno has written a good book on the subject, entitled Who Owns Antiquity? I have a copy sitting on my coffee table, and it is in the on-deck circle once I finish reading about Percy Fawcett's last sojourn into the Amazon Basin (a one-way trip as it so happened). The book questions the relatively recent push for returning antiquities emblematic of a people's cultural heritage to their respective - and current - incarnations of national identity. While we're not talking about antiquities in this particular case, the subject matter is still quite relevant, and while beyond the scope of the thread, IMO it deserves at the least a passing mention. In the instance of these three edged weapons, it is pertinent to ask ourselves, "what were the circumstances surrounding their acquisition by Lt. Col. Brett?" If we are to believe the account of this particular conflict documented in historical journals, there were 25 troopers under Col. Brett's command and 100 Maguindanao warriors aligned together in a battle against an unknown number of Maranao warriors (if one accepts contemporary and long-established historical accounts, there were plenty of reasons that served as personal motivation resulting in Datu Piang aligning himself with the new American colonial power). How do we know these particular items were not presented to Lt. Col Brett by Datu Piang himself? How do we know they were not gifts originating from the Maguindanao? One must rightfully consider other pathways by which an item of cultural importance may find its way to far and distant lands. I sell items to fund my purchases. For instance, in the past years, I have sold Civil War antiques - including swords and knives - into collections on four continents. Once could argue that they are a part of our cultural heritage, but is it not my right to sell these items to whomever I choose? Conversely, I have purchased antique American arms from collections abroad as well. Furthermore, it deserves a passing mention that at the time, the only existence of a unified Philippines was in the eyes of imperial powers external to the archipelago who were in a struggle to exert their control over the native peoples of the islands. The Moros of the time no more considered themselves as part of a unified people with their Visayan and Luzon neighbors to the north as did the Aceh of western Sumatra consider themselves as the "same" people as the tribal Papuan people of Irian Jaya, though both are part of a "unified" Indonesia today. Their significant cultural differences far exceeded any arguably arbitrary ties of national identity assigned to them by outsiders. Lastly, if we were to return every antique, antiquity, and object of historical significance to the current incarnation of national entities that encompass a traditionally and intricately woven tapestry of diverse people and cultural traditions, we risk losing the cultural pluralism mankind has collectively gained over the seven thousand year journey since the beginning of civilization. As someone who has taught at a university (albeit it in mathematics, not history), I have firsthand witnessed the insular nature and ignorance of my fellow countrymen (and women). I remember when traveling in an official capacity to Vietnam in 1995, my cousin - a high school senior at the time - asked me, "Isn't that a city in China?" And she went on to attend a rather prestigious university. Every Thanksgiving, our house fills with family. That same cousin, along with her sisters, arrive with their children. Their sons and daughters wander our house in wonder of the few strange and exotic items on our walls and shelves, and I accompany them each step of the way. I explain about the history, people, and cultures that each item represents. While I have no idea what the future holds for them, I am rather certain they will not grow up to be as ignorant as their parents. They now ask to visit the same museums their mothers have largely ignored their entire lives. There are of course exceptions to this general rule, but in my humble opinion, not every object - whether it be a sword or an olla - is the Kohinoor diamond. Either way, it is a valid discussion, albeit one that seems well-beyond the scope of the thread, and I can appreciate your sentiment.

11th August 2010, 09:54 PM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I don't know where you live, but I have heard the same nonsense here in the States. "Where is Hong Kong?" my wife heard a teenager say to another. "In Japan...duh!"

12th August 2010, 02:32 AM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Or you can always donate them to the "Battara Museum"....

12th August 2010, 02:36 AM	#22
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,261	"To the Conqueror ... " After that it's up to the individual collector of what remains after General Pershing's order #11(?); no ? Not so sure we're here to talk about that; more the weapons themselves . Who owes who is another question entirely .

12th August 2010, 02:48 AM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	My compliments laEspadaAncha. A beautifully put argument.

12th August 2010, 03:45 AM	#24
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Howdy all, Jose - I'm over here in San Diego... I guess the lack of basic geographic knowledge is endemic, eh? Alan - thank you for the kind words... Nonoy & Rick, I agree with you both (and thank you Nonoy)... The one thing I would add is that I really don't consider myself an owner of any of these, or any other antiques - including edged weapons - I am lucky to have, but rather the temporary custodian of these objects, entrusted with their care and preservation for what brief time they happen to be in my possession. Rick, I apologize for the lengthy digression, and will return my focus to the weapons at hand. Speaking of which, I received pictures of the other kris yesterday, the one that got away. All I can say is !! Regards, Chris

12th August 2010, 11:21 PM	#26
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Oh yes, please post the other kris!

13th August 2010, 02:09 AM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,261	Yes, we are all Custodians . Looking forward to these pictures ......

13th August 2010, 02:39 AM	#29
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes, NOW I have your email - mil gracias y bueno suerte!

17th August 2010, 02:38 PM	#30
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	OK, the wait is killing me, are we going to ba able to see it?