An uncommon polearm for comments

fernando · 1st October 2018, 11:14 PM

One of those weapons developed from ancient rural implements as, after all, came the most (or the total ?) of them from.
Perhaps this variant is only found in Portugal, as i don't see them exhibited out there, nor in publications other than Portuguese.
Its name in english speaking typology would be 'war scythe', but we here call this a 'war sickle' (Foice de guerra). Another name would be 'Falcão' (hawk) but i lack certainty.
The (much) later haft is too slim to fit properly into its socket and langets; a more sturdy one must be commissioned one of these days.
The blade age is my drama. In fact, attending to the period when these things saw action, we should be speaking about XVI-XVII centuries; considering this one is authentic, of course. Sharpened in the total length of its convex side and almost half of its straight side.
Have you guys already seen one of these things ?
I am uploading some Portuguese publications where similar pieces are shown, just in case this one of mine might appear fictional to one's eyes...

.

Ian · 2nd October 2018, 12:19 AM

Hi Fernando,

Would this style of polearm not fall into the category of a glaive?

Ian.

Madnumforce · 2nd October 2018, 01:58 AM

Is this absolutely sure this is actually a polearm, and not an agricultural tool some antique dealers managed to make a huge margin on? Cause it strongly reminds me of tools know in French under various names: coupe-marc, hache de chais, etc, that were used to cut and slice the cake in the vat of press. Of course, they are often sold, and even displayed in museums, as polearms. The difference is factor 5-15 on the price, and that's why it's still a lucrative business, combined with ignorance. Another kind of tool knows the same fate, and they're called in France taille-pré, coupe-pré, etc, that were used to cut gutters in meadows to drain them, or to create channels in which the rainwater would run and optimize irrigation (especially for vine and where the soil was poor). Coupe-marc are usually more nicely made than taille-prés, and for example it's a bit unlikely to find a closed socket on a taille-pré, but it's more common on coupe-marcs.

Since in Portugal there is also a long lived tradition of wine making and oil making, it wouldn't be surprising similar tool exist, and the same monkey business about them.

As illustration, a few pictures of various French coupe-marcs et taille-prés.

Marcus den toom · 2nd October 2018, 06:50 AM

Hi Nando and welcome back from America (?)

My knowledge on polearms is limited to only the few i have seen in manuscripts. But.. whenever i find some usefull illustrations i save it.
So hereby a history of polearms.

Victrix · 2nd October 2018, 07:51 AM

Many thanks to Fernando for raising an important point about polearms and their similarity with farm tools which is probably not coincidental. In medieval times there were many peasant rebellions and at other times peasants were often used to serve as infantry. They would then presumably use what was at hand, from which polearms developed. Madnumforce points out the racket in which farm tools on a stick are sold very profitably as antique arms, something which every arms collector should beware of. The distinction between farm tools and arms on sticks can sometimes be blurred and they may at times have been used for both purposes. I would suggest that polearms may be recognized by decorative elements that show intention for use in rituals, military/armoury marks, ruler coat of arms, etc. Even where there are no decorative elements, as in Fernando’s example above, the presence of langets suggests military use.

CSinTX · 2nd October 2018, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

as in Fernando’s example above, the presence of langets suggests military use.

My thoughts as well. The langets on Fernandos piece are quite substantial. If original I would conclude weapon. If any signs of being added, I would conclude tool.

fernando · 2nd October 2018, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

...In medieval times there were many peasant rebellions and at other times peasants were often used to serve as infantry. They would then presumably use what was at hand, from which polearms developed...

I would say not only 'free lancers' resourcing rural tools to cause turbulence among defenseless villages but also traditional agricultors becoming part time 'regulars', when drafted by their land lords to form their infantry battle force (pawns) ...as it comes in the books.

.

fernando · 2nd October 2018, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Hi Nando and welcome back from America (?)

My knowledge on polearms is limited to only the few i have seen in manuscripts. But.. whenever i find some usefull illustrations i save it.
So hereby a history of polearms.

Thank you for the welcome and for the illustration Marcus. I could swear i have one of these, somewhere among my micro library

.

fernando · 2nd October 2018, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Fernando,

Would this style of polearm not fall into the category of a glaive?

Ian.

Well Ian, i tried to 'accomodate' this specimen in such typology, but i hesitated. For a start, there is no actual Portuguese translation for glaive; so i quit the glaive generic category and stood with the specific war sickle name.

1st October 2018, 11:14 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	An uncommon polearm for comments One of those weapons developed from ancient rural implements as, after all, came the most (or the total ?) of them from. Perhaps this variant is only found in Portugal, as i don't see them exhibited out there, nor in publications other than Portuguese. Its name in english speaking typology would be 'war scythe', but we here call this a 'war sickle' (Foice de guerra). Another name would be 'Falcão' (hawk) but i lack certainty. The (much) later haft is too slim to fit properly into its socket and langets; a more sturdy one must be commissioned one of these days. The blade age is my drama. In fact, attending to the period when these things saw action, we should be speaking about XVI-XVII centuries; considering this one is authentic, of course. Sharpened in the total length of its convex side and almost half of its straight side. Have you guys already seen one of these things ? I am uploading some Portuguese publications where similar pieces are shown, just in case this one of mine might appear fictional to one's eyes... . Attached Images

2nd October 2018, 01:58 AM	#3
Madnumforce Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 28	Is this absolutely sure this is actually a polearm, and not an agricultural tool some antique dealers managed to make a huge margin on? Cause it strongly reminds me of tools know in French under various names: coupe-marc, hache de chais, etc, that were used to cut and slice the cake in the vat of press. Of course, they are often sold, and even displayed in museums, as polearms. The difference is factor 5-15 on the price, and that's why it's still a lucrative business, combined with ignorance. Another kind of tool knows the same fate, and they're called in France taille-pré, coupe-pré, etc, that were used to cut gutters in meadows to drain them, or to create channels in which the rainwater would run and optimize irrigation (especially for vine and where the soil was poor). Coupe-marc are usually more nicely made than taille-prés, and for example it's a bit unlikely to find a closed socket on a taille-pré, but it's more common on coupe-marcs. Since in Portugal there is also a long lived tradition of wine making and oil making, it wouldn't be surprising similar tool exist, and the same monkey business about them. As illustration, a few pictures of various French coupe-marcs et taille-prés. Attached Images

2nd October 2018, 06:50 AM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 494	Hi Nando and welcome back from America (?) My knowledge on polearms is limited to only the few i have seen in manuscripts. But.. whenever i find some usefull illustrations i save it. So hereby a history of polearms. Attached Images

2nd October 2018, 12:19 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	Hi Fernando, Would this style of polearm not fall into the category of a glaive? Ian.

2nd October 2018, 07:51 AM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 679	Many thanks to Fernando for raising an important point about polearms and their similarity with farm tools which is probably not coincidental. In medieval times there were many peasant rebellions and at other times peasants were often used to serve as infantry. They would then presumably use what was at hand, from which polearms developed. Madnumforce points out the racket in which farm tools on a stick are sold very profitably as antique arms, something which every arms collector should beware of. The distinction between farm tools and arms on sticks can sometimes be blurred and they may at times have been used for both purposes. I would suggest that polearms may be recognized by decorative elements that show intention for use in rituals, military/armoury marks, ruler coat of arms, etc. Even where there are no decorative elements, as in Fernando’s example above, the presence of langets suggests military use.