A 13 C. Crusader sword from the Holy Land

broadaxe · 15th April 2009, 10:25 AM

To add Artzi's post, Ateret is the modern name to Vadum Iacob, a Templar outpost on the road to Damascus, its history is well documented. Here is a link to the excavation page: http://vadumiacob.huji.ac.il/
I have all the official inventory of edge weapon artifacts (documented crusader period) from the Antiquity Authority, and there are only about two dozens of them, mostly fragments. Two full swords were recovered from under the sea and they are totally encrusted in marine deposit, another important sword lacking its cross guard but do have its original wooden plank scabbard; it has been on loan for the past several year to the L'institut du Monde Arab in Paris. I'm aware of several other partial items in private hands, very few.

Spunjer · 15th April 2009, 03:00 PM

how much does the sword weigh, artzi?
thanks for posting!

Jim McDougall · 15th April 2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

To add Artzi's post, Ateret is the modern name to Vadum Iacob, a Templar outpost on the road to Damascus, its history is well documented. Here is a link to the excavation page: http://vadumiacob.huji.ac.il/
I have all the official inventory of edge weapon artifacts (documented crusader period) from the Antiquity Authority, and there are only about two dozens of them, mostly fragments. Two full swords were recovered from under the sea and they are totally encrusted in marine deposit, another important sword lacking its cross guard but do have its original wooden plank scabbard; it has been on loan for the past several year to the L'institut du Monde Arab in Paris. I'm aware of several other partial items in private hands, very few.

Thank you so much for posting the additional link and information Broadaxe. Extremely helpful ! This is such a fascinating sword, and the more I look at it , the more I want to learn about the archaeology of the crusades.
It seems topics like this are always sort of present, but one gets so busy in the maelstrom of so many daily queries and subjects, something this monumental seems to get put off.
The inspiration here is compelling!

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. Spunjer, good to see you posting here. Havent seen you for a while

cornelistromp · 15th April 2009, 07:19 PM

Ewart Oakeshott has a very nice theory about find places:

quote "it is necessary to say a word about the places at which swords have been found. to be able to say that a certain sword was found on the site of a certain battle, thereby providing a firm terminus post quem date, is of no use at all. If half-a-dozen swords,an Axe or two, dozens of arrow heads and many spears, were to be found on a battle site,this would be evidence.
But it never happens ; it is only the isolated sword that is generally found in a stream or a pond near the battle-site. After any battle, all the debris of value,-and swords above all weapons were of great value, as well as being easily portable-was collected up; all the Armour, clothes,jewelery or any other move able property left upon the dead was stripped off before the bodies were put into pits.................so it must be with so many medieval swords found on or near places where a battle is known to have been fought; but on the sites of great well known battles-Hastings, Evesham, Bouvines, Crecy, Mauron, Sempach,Agincourt,Beauge, Patay,Mont'Lhery,Nancy, Marignano-swords have not been found at all. I believe that any note that a sword was found "near the site of the battle of X" has to be taken with rather more than a pinch of salt. Unquote

broadaxe · 16th April 2009, 07:55 AM

Jim, you may want to look into this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=a4R...snum=1#PPP1,M1

This book is the most up-to-date single volume about the entire subject. Dr. Boas is a noted medieval archaeologist and was part of the excavators at Ateret, head of the excavation at the Teutonic quarter in Acre and so on.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2009, 04:28 PM

Thank you so much Sa'ar for the additional link, and what a magnificent book! I am tempted to try to get it, but I think I've reached my quota here in the bookmobile...my rolling home. It certainly reflects the outstanding work of these archaeologists in these regions, and I'm looking forward to learning more. I really do appreciate your kind helpfullness!

Cornelis, thank you for adding the excellent assesments on the aftermath of battlefield sites as observed by Mr. Oakeshott. What he notes is certainly one of the well placed axioms of archaeology, that the discovery of a single item without corroborating evidence is simply that of a singular item, and not of larger scale presence.
While the discovery of a single sword with the clearly evident stature of this example, its importance is not so much in representing a particular battle, but that it has been in situ since the period it is from. In this it is extremely exciting, much in the way that shipwrecks are, having remained virtually undisturbed as if time stood still.

Naturally the removal of valuable items such as swords from battle locations was standard, and the examples found are the broken ones or those in marine deposits as noted by Broadaxe.

I cannot imagine what amazing excitement it would be to touch such an artifact for the first time in so many centuries!!! While I know archaeology certainly must have its trials and tediom.....the rush from that must be fantastic!

All the best,
Jim

Oriental-Arms · 18th April 2009, 11:39 AM

The weight of the sword is 1000 Gramms

18th April 2009, 11:39 AM	#7
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Weight The weight of the sword is 1000 Gramms

15th April 2009, 10:25 AM	#1
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	To add Artzi's post, Ateret is the modern name to Vadum Iacob, a Templar outpost on the road to Damascus, its history is well documented. Here is a link to the excavation page: http://vadumiacob.huji.ac.il/ I have all the official inventory of edge weapon artifacts (documented crusader period) from the Antiquity Authority, and there are only about two dozens of them, mostly fragments. Two full swords were recovered from under the sea and they are totally encrusted in marine deposit, another important sword lacking its cross guard but do have its original wooden plank scabbard; it has been on loan for the past several year to the L'institut du Monde Arab in Paris. I'm aware of several other partial items in private hands, very few.

15th April 2009, 03:00 PM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	how much does the sword weigh, artzi? thanks for posting!

15th April 2009, 07:19 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Ewart Oakeshott has a very nice theory about find places: quote "it is necessary to say a word about the places at which swords have been found. to be able to say that a certain sword was found on the site of a certain battle, thereby providing a firm terminus post quem date, is of no use at all. If half-a-dozen swords,an Axe or two, dozens of arrow heads and many spears, were to be found on a battle site,this would be evidence. But it never happens ; it is only the isolated sword that is generally found in a stream or a pond near the battle-site. After any battle, all the debris of value,-and swords above all weapons were of great value, as well as being easily portable-was collected up; all the Armour, clothes,jewelery or any other move able property left upon the dead was stripped off before the bodies were put into pits.................so it must be with so many medieval swords found on or near places where a battle is known to have been fought; but on the sites of great well known battles-Hastings, Evesham, Bouvines, Crecy, Mauron, Sempach,Agincourt,Beauge, Patay,Mont'Lhery,Nancy, Marignano-swords have not been found at all. I believe that any note that a sword was found "near the site of the battle of X" has to be taken with rather more than a pinch of salt. Unquote

16th April 2009, 07:55 AM	#5
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Jim, you may want to look into this: http://books.google.com/books?id=a4R...snum=1#PPP1,M1 This book is the most up-to-date single volume about the entire subject. Dr. Boas is a noted medieval archaeologist and was part of the excavators at Ateret, head of the excavation at the Teutonic quarter in Acre and so on.

16th April 2009, 04:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,410	Thank you so much Sa'ar for the additional link, and what a magnificent book! I am tempted to try to get it, but I think I've reached my quota here in the bookmobile...my rolling home. It certainly reflects the outstanding work of these archaeologists in these regions, and I'm looking forward to learning more. I really do appreciate your kind helpfullness! Cornelis, thank you for adding the excellent assesments on the aftermath of battlefield sites as observed by Mr. Oakeshott. What he notes is certainly one of the well placed axioms of archaeology, that the discovery of a single item without corroborating evidence is simply that of a singular item, and not of larger scale presence. While the discovery of a single sword with the clearly evident stature of this example, its importance is not so much in representing a particular battle, but that it has been in situ since the period it is from. In this it is extremely exciting, much in the way that shipwrecks are, having remained virtually undisturbed as if time stood still. Naturally the removal of valuable items such as swords from battle locations was standard, and the examples found are the broken ones or those in marine deposits as noted by Broadaxe. I cannot imagine what amazing excitement it would be to touch such an artifact for the first time in so many centuries!!! While I know archaeology certainly must have its trials and tediom.....the rush from that must be fantastic! All the best, Jim