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3rd September 2021, 09:12 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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Well, absolutely not made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.
Takouba blade or Indian blade to resemble to a European blade. 
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3rd September 2021, 09:43 AM
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#2 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,730
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Quote:
In your post above you say you have Indian blades with fullers. Can we please see some pics? Stu |
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3rd September 2021, 01:24 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
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Sukhela - a kind of steel.
Dhoop - a representative sword that can be held like a staff (as Jim correctly wrote). Indian talwar with a blade of Persian, European, African and so on production, made in accordance with Indian traditions in India - this is an Indian talwar. I saw in the thread no facts why this blade could not have been made in India. |
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3rd September 2021, 03:29 PM
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#4 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,775
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Quote:
As North Africa imitated European blades, it would be hard to determine which might be the case. Thank you for the info on Sukhela being a type of steel, I had not realized that but indeed that may have lent to the term for the swords which had been produced using it. It seems that these kinds of instances would come up for example in Sirohi (Rajasthan) where the swords produced were called that, but whether place name or as you note, perhaps other, might be the case. The name game gets pretty 'exciting' (?) and intriguing. |
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3rd September 2021, 03:39 PM
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#5 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,775
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Quote:
Hi Kubur, Since North African blades often tried to imitate European, and Indian armorers did as well, it is hard to say, but this seems made in India. In West Africa, many of the takouba types do have these wide forte and tapering blades, and with this kind of fullering, but it would be difficult to imagine why a native made Saharan blade would end up in Indo-Persian tulwar hilt..I have always sort of hidden my eyes from the notorious 'labs' (very well put) where collector guaged 'antiquities' are created by nefarious sellers, but they do exist. As I had noted, I have seen numerous instances where Sudanese blades have ended up in Indian mounts, but have always taken it that these were simply blades diverted from the trade routes which carried these blades and somehow diffused into the India network. Here is a pata of mine I've had for about 40 years. As can be seen this appears to be a Solingen blade, the cosmological motif can be faintly seen. This is of the type that went into Sudan c. 1880s. The erratic profile of the blade is common on older kaskara and Saharan blades which have had rugged sharpening by native warriors with stones. Clearly this blade at some time ended up in this pata hillt, and it was long ago as considerably before I acquired it. In various ceremonies with groups in regions in SW India pata are used processionally and in demonstrations so this might well have been a votive piece, not intended for combat. The wide, tapered blade takouba from regions in Saharan regions such as Mali, to Cameroon seems to have been status oriented. While often the upper part is covered by a metal collar, often these are seen with the kind of fullers seen on Stu's example. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd September 2021 at 04:59 PM. |
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3rd September 2021, 04:07 PM
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#6 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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Quote:
Agreed! South Indian three fullers are larger and not completely parrallel (unlike the takouba's ones), wider at the ricasso. Quote:
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3rd September 2021, 06:26 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,577
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Hi,
This sword belongs to me and I am as sure as I can be that it is all original and not a composite. I termed this sword as Sukhela as the blade has the flexibility to conform to the type. The sword form appears to be named after this type of steel. This is a backsword and I would be interested if Stu could confirm if his is a backsword or broadsword. Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 3rd September 2021 at 06:50 PM. |
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3rd September 2021, 06:29 PM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,577
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Hi,
This sword belongs to Rick and again as far as I can see it is also a backsword. Rick questioned whether his example be termed a Dhup. Regards, Norman. |
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3rd September 2021, 06:37 PM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,577
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3rd September 2021, 06:52 PM
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#10 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,775
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Hi Norman,
I am inclined to believe that these 'dhup' are typically backswords (SE) as yours and Rick's, it seems other examples I have seen are single edged. From the blade appearance of Stu's I am suspecting this is a double edged blade, note the fullers are centrally placed. In backswords, the fullers are of course inclined toward the back of the blade with the blade resulting in more of a 'wedge' shape. |
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4th September 2021, 01:36 AM
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#11 | |
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Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,264
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Quote:
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5th September 2021, 12:11 AM
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
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My understanding ( as per Elgood) that a Firangi ( European blade) migrated North and was called Dhup in the Deccan and Asa Shamshir in North India.
And yes, those were usually quite long, but, just like everything in India, they varied enormously. Here I am showing my Firangis. It is quite dark outside, I had to turn off some lights in our pretty small " open" room to eliminate flashes on the blades and,- last but not least,- I am a crummy photographer!!!!!! |
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