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Old 29th May 2020, 07:40 PM   #1
Duccio
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Default Mysterious object

I bought an item at auction, because I was curious and I didn't understand what it was.
Now I have it in my hands, but I still can't understand what the hell it is.
And I don't even understand which part of the world it comes from ...
I thought it was a work tool, but it seems to me that it is too richly decorated, even in a rather "delicate" way, with inserts in copper, brass, braided iron wire ...
Anyone have an idea?
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Old 30th May 2020, 09:45 AM   #2
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I don't know what this is but for me the end of the grip looks like a cowboy or western boot. Maybe it is a tool to ease pulling on or of these boots?
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Old 30th May 2020, 09:51 AM   #3
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What about a tool to remove stones from horse's hooves?
Does the pointy bit hinge shut? I agree that the handle looks like a western boot but I can not see how one would use it to aid putting on or taking off boots.
Stu
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Old 30th May 2020, 10:02 AM   #4
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Could it be a trocar for cow paunch ?
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Old 30th May 2020, 11:41 AM   #5
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Mmmm. No answers here.
Does't look North American West though. Perhaps Mexico or South America because there is something about it that say Spanish.
It is not for treating hoofs because you need something short and very sturdy for that. JBG's suggestion, a trocar for cow paunch is interesting (autch), but I don't know if that would be something to carry around by cattle herders.
We need a cowboys expert!
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Old 30th May 2020, 07:39 PM   #6
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It looks like some type of sickle.
Possibly Bengali?
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Old 30th May 2020, 09:22 PM   #7
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I think its an Afghan lohar thing or related...
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Old 30th May 2020, 10:11 PM   #8
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I've got to vote with the guys who say it is Mexican or South American. The cowboy boot to me doesn't lend itself to an Afghani attribution. Also, the inlay work reminds me of some of the fancy Mexican horse bits and spurs.
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Old 30th May 2020, 10:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drac2k
The cowboy boot to me doesn't lend itself to an Afghani attribution. Also, the inlay work reminds me of some of the fancy Mexican horse bits and spurs.


When you look at the clouds, what do you see?
Me I see large female breasts...
Translation
You see a boot whereas I see a curved pommel...
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Old 30th May 2020, 10:36 PM   #10
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My first impression was indian object...
A new mistery!!!
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Old 30th May 2020, 11:08 PM   #11
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Could it be for mixing fruit salads?
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Old 30th May 2020, 11:10 PM   #12
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Yes Kubur, but look more closely.......they are wearing cowgirl boots.
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Old 31st May 2020, 12:44 AM   #13
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Is there a hole in the "top of the boot"? If so what size and would something fit into it that is missing? The configuration of the spike and the handle don't seem to work just on their own.
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Old 31st May 2020, 08:56 AM   #14
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Old 31st May 2020, 09:11 AM   #15
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Boot? yes; Cowboy? That implies a USA bias. Many cultures wear boots. Not only Bovine/Equine herders. Military wore boots, mounted or not.

Does it have an edge? Is it on the inside of the curve? If both are true, I'd go with the grass trimming sickle. Maybe some noble had them made for his minions and wanted to show off that he was so rich even his slaves and low class servants had fancy tools. The different colour metallic bands suggest afghan.
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Old 31st May 2020, 12:21 PM   #16
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Duccio,

I think your initial thought that this knife is a tool may be correct. The presence of a boot shaped hilt suggests to me that this is a leather knife, perhaps used for the splitting of leather.

Ian.

Last edited by Ian : 31st May 2020 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 1st June 2020, 02:27 PM   #17
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Thank you all! I didn't think I got so many answers, so quickly! We don't know what this object is, but there are interesting hypotheses.
I personally believe that the right path is the one indicated by Richard G., who speaks of Indian agricultural tools; as seen in the links below, the shapes are very similar, although the decoration is completely missing.
https://picclick.com/Unique-Farming...4063114755.html

Otherwise we can always solve the question as archaeologists and ethnologists often do, defining this object as a "cult object", which is fine for everything ....
thank you all!
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Old 3rd June 2020, 05:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
I think its an Afghan lohar thing or related...


That is the first thing I thought. Wondered if it was a knife for gathering rice or some other agricultural product. The decoration Is a mystery if it is agricultural. Maybe for a harvest celebration?

Steve
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Old 3rd June 2020, 07:00 PM   #19
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The first lohar were agricultural tools, there is one in Dimitry's book.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25678

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Old 4th June 2020, 05:25 PM   #20
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Sorry guys, but this is not a sickle. It just wouldn't work. Sickles are thin and usually serrated and more curved. This is a thick and almost straight. Because it has an almost triangular cross-section, it is logical to assume it was used for perforating something. But what??
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Old 6th June 2020, 08:25 PM   #21
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I'm not giving up that easily! Whilst agreeing it probably does not fit the definition of a sickle if the definition includes a curved blade, I still think it is most probably a harvesting knife of some sort. With a sharp inside edge I think you could quite easily tackle asparagus, lettuce and similar market garden type crops.
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Old 7th June 2020, 08:23 AM   #22
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Antique reaping hook, note the decorative line carvings and the starburst washer under the bolster rivet, etc.
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Old 7th June 2020, 01:06 PM   #23
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At this point can we all agree that this interesting and mysterious item is NOT a weapon? I think it should be moved to the miscellaneous section.
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Old 7th June 2020, 06:54 PM   #24
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Yes. Farm tool.
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Old 8th June 2020, 11:40 AM   #25
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Hi Kronckew,
The picture shows what I said in my previous post: that a sickle has broad, curved and often serrated blade. A narrow and thick blade is inefficient for cutting, which the harvest of grain usually involves.
Having said that, the picture shows that our object is most probably a farm tool from the same provenance as the sickle. Do you know where the sickle is from?
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Old 8th June 2020, 12:39 PM   #26
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Your definition of broad and serrated vary from mine. They also wear down narrower as you sharpen them. You should have seen my Granny's:

How long it took from 'before' to 'after' I always wondered as all our butter knives were sharper. I suspect she had them at least 50 years...

The site I found it on just called it an old reaping knife sickle. Further definitions said they in general could either be serrated or not. My example was not. I suspect it was British victorian.
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Old 10th June 2020, 06:25 AM   #27
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Hi Duccio,

Can you tell us if your weapon/ tool has two sharp edges? I can see that on your photo... I guess a sickle should have only one sharp edge...

Here are the comments posted by Mahratt:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt
Afghans (of Tajik origin) called the above-described lohar as daas (داس) and identified as an agricultural implement (information from modern Afghans). Apparently "daas" is a distorted Tajik word "dos". This word is related to agricultural implements. Sickle was a harvesting tool for the Uzbeks called "urok" or "urak" by the Uzbeks, the Tajiks called it "dos" and "dost". Such sickles are widely spread in Central Asia and described by many researchers and in its different parts . For example a similar sickle existed on the territory of present day Kyrgyzstan called orok .
Afghanistan was not ignored. "Trade tools used by the Afghans are of types widespread in the Western and Central Asia, and Northern India ... The Afghans called sickle as a lor" . The most interesting for us is that all of the abovementioned sickles differ from each other by names, their appearance and materials used for manufacturing are almost identical. And they are much alike to a considered lohar. A curved iron blade with internal sharpening merging into a narrow iron sickle pin where wooden handle is mounted underneath, circular in section . We believe that «lohar» described by Stone is an ordinary sickle traditionally used by the Afghans; they called it lor (Drawing of the sickle used by the people of Afghanistan.) On a related note it is possible that the term «lohar» arisen due to the fact that the word "lor" standing for sickle, was heard and wrote incorrectly and reached Stone in a distorted form.
Sickles being similar in shape often differ in size: "According to the purpose the Tajiks of Afghanistan subdivided sickles into sickles to harvest various herbage "dos and kadrav", sickle to harvest bread crops "dos and gandumdaravi", sickle to cut trees branches ... " . An important point is a small size of sickle blade in XIX- early XX century (10-15 cm) related to high cost of iron . Not least important is that the sickle for the Central Asian people is not only an agricultural tool but also a sacred object used in various ceremonies.
For example when the first stripping from cowshed they put sickle or ax, in case of no sickle, under the doorstep so that the animals' "souls were stronger than iron" . During one of the rites Boboi Dekhon (patron of agriculture) called for the blessing of the spirit-patron into the new farmer and passed sickle over to the boy's hands . Dance with sickles is also known reproducing harvest process that was performed by men solely and exclusively and dance of "Stork" performed by women and also associated with the fertility cult . A sickle was used to cut the cord of newborn in some areas . Sickle was considered a reliable protection from evil spirits .
In a similar way to the abovementioned sickles we believe that the lohars initially described by Stone were used as sickles to harvest. Large samples were the sickles. Occurring of richly decorated small samples with a hilt made of bone, unsuitable for its primary function - cutting of stems, most likely due to the fact that these objects were used during various ceremonies in the families. And they acted as dwelling decoration in the daily time. This besides explains why they are decorated with only one hand and on the other hand they are smooth.
Were lohars used as weapons? Absolutely they were. There are a number of evidences for it. For example there was a proverb among locals in the valley of Bannu: "A sickle is an Afghan knife for a real man" ,where a sickle was directly associated with a knife. It appears that sickles were not only a criminal weapon ,but also a weapon of intra-tribal fights when solving domestic conflicts, Bellew writes about (Bellew H. W. Journal of a Political Mission to Afghanistan is an account of a mission undertaken by Henry Burnett Lumsden, a British officer in the Indian army, to Kandahar, Afghanistan, in 1857, London, Smith, Elder and co., 1862; Currie F. The Indian Criminal Codes, London, 1872) ,it was used in the battles between the tribes as well (men of the Talla and the Wazirs) when a sickle was used as well as bladed weapon (sword) .
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Old 12th June 2020, 08:49 AM   #28
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Hello everyone,
there is only one sharp side, the inner side.
It is not very sharp either, but it has a very fine serration, which can be seen a bit in the photo.
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Old 13th June 2020, 05:58 PM   #29
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Ok, the object is no longer mysterious: it is a sickle produced in the Indo-Pakistani area; curiously very, very decorated compared to traditional work tools.
But the shape of the blade and the handle is the same, and the system of fixing the blade to the handle is also the same.
I attach some photos, found following Kronckew's indication, which I thank.
At this youtube link you can see the manufacturing process of these tools.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ12BODBkrM
And therefore, as a tool and not a weapon, this thread is in the wrong place ...
Thanks again to everyone.
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Old 17th June 2020, 08:57 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duccio

And therefore, as a tool and not a weapon, this thread is in the wrong place ...

neither disrespect nor offence intended but especially in Asia many weapons find their origin in tools. Certainly talking martial arts...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj1KXkhTQic

Last edited by gp : 17th June 2020 at 10:45 PM.
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