IS THIS AN AFRICAN DAGGER ? PAGING THE EXPERTS

fernando · 7th April 2007, 09:54 PM

Quite a bizarre specimen.
The seller only had it with him for a couple days ... no time to identify it.
Th blade is 21,5 cms ( 8 1/2" ) long.
Grip and scabbard are cast brass ... seller mentioned lost wax?!
There is an eliptical window in the scabbard ... i ignore the purpose.
In its back there is a frog button. In the front, there is an arch loop.
The blade looks used and some old. It has equal decoration/marks on both sides.
Somebody help me to identify this piece ?
Thanks in advance
fernando

Flavio · 7th April 2007, 10:09 PM

Hello Fernando, seems some kind of variation of the Adamaua - Mandara daggers (North Cameroon).

fernando · 7th April 2007, 11:11 PM

Thanks a lot Flavio.
Quite close. I will try and check further into that.

katana · 8th April 2007, 12:30 PM

Hi Fernando,
I'm no expert

but the hilt design (not including the pommel) and blade shape seem to have Taureg inflences.

Nice old piece

fernando · 8th April 2007, 05:17 PM

Thanks David,
I was actually tending to beleive Flavio's sugestion was about right, specially because of those scabbard rounded tips. I just can't see in the pictures if those scabbards are perforated, which would better define the similarity with my piece. I also have "Waffen aus Zentral-Afrika" in a CD, but i can't see any better. My idea is that the "window" in the scabbard is vital detail for identification, as also the blade marks. I wonder which is the scabbard face side, and if that button is really a frog holder. This way the window would be in the back side, against the body. However with that brass arch loop, would be uncomfortable, whatever purpose it would be for.
I wonder if Tim Simons has something like this in his collection ... or anybody else, anyway. I would love to know a few things about this item. Could all the details be just fantasy or functional parts.
I will keep looking, until further news come in.
Thanks again
fernando

Flavio · 8th April 2007, 06:37 PM

Hello Fernando, at least number 132 of "Waffen aus Zentral-Afrika" has oper work on the scabbard. Note also the particular on number 133 scabbard identical to yours.

fernando · 8th April 2007, 07:41 PM

Thanks a lot for opening my eyes, Flavio.
My CD images were copied into a small format in my computer files. Now i can see the open work, the identical decoration details and even those arch loops ... i don't know how to call them better. No doubt these pieces are familiar to mine, the origin definitely being the same.
I see that you picked the origin Adamaua-Mandara from a different book, the one of picture number 40, right. Which is this book?
Again many thanks.
BTW Do you think this piece could be as old as 19th century ?

Flavio · 8th April 2007, 10:45 PM

Hi Fernando the book is Afrikanische Waffen (Fischer - Zirngibl). About the age: the decoration on the scabbard seems nice done even if the brass seems quite thin around the open work. More the different hilt could simply a variation or a more recent work. The pieces for references were collected all in the early 900 so yours could be around 1950, but it's just a guess

fernando · 8th April 2007, 10:52 PM

Thanks a lot, Flavio

katana · 10th April 2007, 04:09 PM

Hi Fernando,
the amount of decoration on the sheath...opposite to the 'window' side...suggests that this would be the facing side. So the question is......why is there a window

It would make sense that you could make a weapon look larger (and therefor have more status) by putting a knife/sword in a scabbard that was too big. If this was a common practice perhaps the 'window' was a way of showing that the scabbard was 'full of blade'......the only thing is ...the window would have to be on the facing side...so that it could be seen.

If I am right and the blade window faces the body, then, perhaps, there could be some cultural/religious reason.....I can see no practical reason to leave part of the blade exposed to the 'elements' (humidity etc)

katana · 10th April 2007, 04:27 PM

Just found these images of two old shields attributed to the Mandara...
with similar designs to the sheath...

http://www.afrikana.de/index.php?9&b...t_products=388

http://www.afrikana.de/index.php?9&b...t_products=544

Flavio · 10th April 2007, 07:51 PM

Hi all, I can't say nothing about the open work on the scabbard, but on the book "De fer et de fiertè" the author (Jan Elsen) says that the groups of the North Cameroon are master of the technique of lost wax and that the brass sheathed knives resemble the ones in wood and leather. So maybe the brass versions are used for ceremonial purpose?? (like, in reverse view, like the ikulas and the ilwoons in wooden that are used among the Kuba - Congo - in some periods)

fernando · 10th April 2007, 08:59 PM

Hi David
I am glad for your mutual interest in trying to find how things make sense. I was precisely going to ( somehow ) sugest what Flavio has just brought up in a clear manner. These pieces not be for hanging against the body, weapon like, but for decoration or cerimonial purposes, or even for trading as money or the like.
In other words, to be held in hands, with a double face look, thus with trimings in both sides. This not excluding that the "window" was to show off the contents, as you sugested, to proof that the thing had some added value. In above example 133 the blade is much much smaller than the sheath. BTW, I must say that in my piece, the scabbard collar doesn't fit into the handle slot as a functional weapon should do.
Here's another example i found in the Net, a bit more modern, but of a similar situation ... i still think my piece is a bit older

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat48_1.txt
Thank you so much for the precious input, Flavio.
fernando

Flavio · 10th April 2007, 10:33 PM

Hi Fernando, I'm happy to be of some help

unfortunatly, for what I know, there is little written on this part of Africa.

7th April 2007, 09:54 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	IS THIS AN AFRICAN DAGGER ? PAGING THE EXPERTS Quite a bizarre specimen. The seller only had it with him for a couple days ... no time to identify it. Th blade is 21,5 cms ( 8 1/2" ) long. Grip and scabbard are cast brass ... seller mentioned lost wax?! There is an eliptical window in the scabbard ... i ignore the purpose. In its back there is a frog button. In the front, there is an arch loop. The blade looks used and some old. It has equal decoration/marks on both sides. Somebody help me to identify this piece ? Thanks in advance fernando Attached Images

7th April 2007, 10:09 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Fernando, seems some kind of variation of the Adamaua - Mandara daggers (North Cameroon). Attached Images

8th April 2007, 06:37 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Fernando, at least number 132 of "Waffen aus Zentral-Afrika" has oper work on the scabbard. Note also the particular on number 133 scabbard identical to yours. Attached Images

8th April 2007, 07:41 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Thanks a lot for opening my eyes, Flavio. My CD images were copied into a small format in my computer files. Now i can see the open work, the identical decoration details and even those arch loops ... i don't know how to call them better. No doubt these pieces are familiar to mine, the origin definitely being the same. I see that you picked the origin Adamaua-Mandara from a different book, the one of picture number 40, right. Which is this book? Again many thanks. BTW Do you think this piece could be as old as 19th century ? Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 8th April 2007 at 07:59 PM.

10th April 2007, 07:51 PM	#12
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all, I can't say nothing about the open work on the scabbard, but on the book "De fer et de fiertè" the author (Jan Elsen) says that the groups of the North Cameroon are master of the technique of lost wax and that the brass sheathed knives resemble the ones in wood and leather. So maybe the brass versions are used for ceremonial purpose?? (like, in reverse view, like the ikulas and the ilwoons in wooden that are used among the Kuba - Congo - in some periods) Attached Images

7th April 2007, 11:11 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Thanks a lot Flavio. Quite close. I will try and check further into that.

8th April 2007, 12:30 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, I'm no expert but the hilt design (not including the pommel) and blade shape seem to have Taureg inflences. Nice old piece

8th April 2007, 05:17 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Thanks David, I was actually tending to beleive Flavio's sugestion was about right, specially because of those scabbard rounded tips. I just can't see in the pictures if those scabbards are perforated, which would better define the similarity with my piece. I also have "Waffen aus Zentral-Afrika" in a CD, but i can't see any better. My idea is that the "window" in the scabbard is vital detail for identification, as also the blade marks. I wonder which is the scabbard face side, and if that button is really a frog holder. This way the window would be in the back side, against the body. However with that brass arch loop, would be uncomfortable, whatever purpose it would be for. I wonder if Tim Simons has something like this in his collection ... or anybody else, anyway. I would love to know a few things about this item. Could all the details be just fantasy or functional parts. I will keep looking, until further news come in. Thanks again fernando

8th April 2007, 10:45 PM	#8
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Fernando the book is Afrikanische Waffen (Fischer - Zirngibl). About the age: the decoration on the scabbard seems nice done even if the brass seems quite thin around the open work. More the different hilt could simply a variation or a more recent work. The pieces for references were collected all in the early 900 so yours could be around 1950, but it's just a guess

8th April 2007, 10:52 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Thanks a lot, Flavio

10th April 2007, 04:09 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, the amount of decoration on the sheath...opposite to the 'window' side...suggests that this would be the facing side. So the question is......why is there a window It would make sense that you could make a weapon look larger (and therefor have more status) by putting a knife/sword in a scabbard that was too big. If this was a common practice perhaps the 'window' was a way of showing that the scabbard was 'full of blade'......the only thing is ...the window would have to be on the facing side...so that it could be seen. If I am right and the blade window faces the body, then, perhaps, there could be some cultural/religious reason.....I can see no practical reason to leave part of the blade exposed to the 'elements' (humidity etc)

10th April 2007, 04:27 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Just found these images of two old shields attributed to the Mandara... with similar designs to the sheath... http://www.afrikana.de/index.php?9&b...t_products=388 http://www.afrikana.de/index.php?9&b...t_products=544

10th April 2007, 08:59 PM	#13
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Hi David I am glad for your mutual interest in trying to find how things make sense. I was precisely going to ( somehow ) sugest what Flavio has just brought up in a clear manner. These pieces not be for hanging against the body, weapon like, but for decoration or cerimonial purposes, or even for trading as money or the like. In other words, to be held in hands, with a double face look, thus with trimings in both sides. This not excluding that the "window" was to show off the contents, as you sugested, to proof that the thing had some added value. In above example 133 the blade is much much smaller than the sheath. BTW, I must say that in my piece, the scabbard collar doesn't fit into the handle slot as a functional weapon should do. Here's another example i found in the Net, a bit more modern, but of a similar situation ... i still think my piece is a bit older http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat48_1.txt Thank you so much for the precious input, Flavio. fernando Last edited by fernando; 10th April 2007 at 09:35 PM.

10th April 2007, 10:33 PM	#14
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Fernando, I'm happy to be of some help unfortunatly, for what I know, there is little written on this part of Africa.