A double barrel pistol for coments

fernando · 27th December 2008, 06:49 PM

I have filed this as a hunting pistol, somehow because i wouldn't know what else to call it.
The date would be XIX century; i think you folks agree ?
I ignore its country of origin ... what do you say ... somewhere in Europe?
I don't think this is a factory piece, but instead a private production. Some of the fittings and the irregular barrels drilling make it look a bit rustic to me. Actually there is a one milimeter difference between the two bores.
Two interesting points i am raising:
Firstly, there is only one trigger for the two hammers, which denotes some sofistication in the action, specially for a locally made pistol ... am i right ?
Secondly, those two rods between the barrels, one in each side; what the hell are they for ? Note that they are loose, in that they can be turned around, but they can not be taken out their places. Note also that the barrels are not welded to eachother; we can actually see through a slight gap between them.
If this were a gun with a more technical aspect, we could think of some fantasy like the rods being for avoiding some kind of vibration, or other type of advanced reason.
It's just that it is very hard to accept that these 'loose locked' rods are just there for decoration

.
There is a minuscle mark on the barrel side, which might be the maker's mark, but i am not certain.
Coments will be apreciated ... and not necessarily plausible coments

Fernando

.

kahnjar1 · 27th December 2008, 08:23 PM

Hi Fernando, and a Happy New Year.

Another interesting pistol. As you don't give dimensions I won't comment on its heritage, but the lanyard ring suggests maybe for use from horseback or somesuch, so that if the user accidently dropped it it could be retrieved easily.It does not appear to be for military use though as I said size may give a clue.
As far as origin goes, I agree that somewhere in Europe seems likely, and I would guess at Belgium. The stock decoration (such as it is) is a quite common on cheap Belgian pistols.
I have absolutely no idea as to the reason for the rods---snap on bayonet??. My initial though before I saw it had two hammers, was that it was a turnover pistol, but it is obviously not that!
All the Best
Stuart

Pukka Bundook · 28th December 2008, 12:29 AM

Hello Fernando.

I'd also say Belgian, unless there are proof marks that say otherwise.

The two rods would be ramrods, at one time. I can't see very well what I'm looking at, but is the rod held in by a lug at the muzzle? Normally, this lug would be not too pronounced, and the ramrod could be sprung past it.
In this case, the lug looks a bit bigger, as if it has had some more metal attached. Originally, the tip of the ramrod would be of larger diemeter, thus making it easier to get a hold of.

Do the locks have half and full cocking positions?
Probably the one that is full-cocked would fire, whilst the half-cocked one would be relatively "safe"!

Are both barrels smooth-bored? Sometimes one is rifled and of a different calibre to the other.

Happy New Year from Canada!

Richard.

Anandalal N. · 28th December 2008, 07:57 AM

Greetings.

I have been following the discussion for a whilst but signed up only now. I am from Sri Lanka with an abiding interest in ancient arms and armour presently with a specific interest in the history of firearms in Sri Lanka (Ceylon). Fernando, I have sent a PM to you.

The pistol illustrated is very interesting. The rods would be ramrods if they could be taken out but you say they can only be turned? Seeing that the barrels are over and under with a single trigger but two hammers, could they dictate choice in which barrel fires at a given time or do they have a set frequency i.e. the top firing first and then the bottom or vice-versa?

Best Regards.

fernando · 28th December 2008, 10:09 PM

First of all, welcome to the Forum, Anandalal.
Now, let's see what we have here, that may be answered.

This pistol size is considerable, with 14 cms barrel length; the caliber rounds 11 mm. It is not so heavy, though.
I would say that, pistols and revolvers having a lanyard ring, sugest that they are military pieces, rather than only for mounted forces; but this is not an absolute rule.
Belgium origin ? maybe yes, but there are no proof marks in it; and even cheap stuff from Belgium usualy bears proof marks. Again this is no absolute rule.
Eventually i have just noticed that the little mark on the barrel also appears on the hammers bases so, for sure, they are intentional marks, although they may belong to some regional maker.
I don't think that at any chance those intriguing rods are or were once ramrods. They are 'too many', being a pair, and are too rigid to spring off the lugs.
BTW, the sugestion that they would lack a wider diameter in the tip for better handling, would not apply to this type of gun. You are referring to an ejection rod, due to cartridge chamber generation, whereas in this muzzle loading version, the wider part would be in the front end, to ram the charge into the barrel. One crazy idea would be that their purpose is to avoid dirt from easily geting into the two separated barrels ... a crazy idea, i said

.
Both barrels are smooth bore.
The uni trigger technique is as i called it, sofisticated, but non troppo. Its action has no mistery; it will activate the hammers that are cocked at one time ... either one or both simultaneously. As this is a single action gun, it's up to the shooter to select what will happen. The right hammer shoots the top barrel. The hammers have two positions: full cocked and half cocked; but you can't call the late a safety position, as it is able to fire in such case ... at least presently

.
Thank you for having posted your opinnions, folks; ready for the next ones.
Fernando

Gavin Nugent · 28th December 2008, 11:55 PM

Hi Fernando,

I can't help but I have been hitting the books, all I can say is I LIKE IT!!!

A very cool little pistol, you'd feel pretty safe with a pair of those stuffed in your breeches.

Gav

Pukka Bundook · 29th December 2008, 04:08 AM

Fernando,

I was not talking about an ejection rod. I know it's a muzzleloader.
Some double over and unders have two ramrods, one each side, with a lug retaining them. they are sprung past the lug to withdraw them.

A muzzleloader should have a larger tip to the rod, to ram home the charge, rather than just a rod.

R.

Gav,
Not if they can go off at half cock you wouldn't!

kahnjar1 · 29th December 2008, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

First of all, welcome to the Forum, Anandalal.
Now, let's see what we have here, that may be answered.

This pistol size is considerable, with 14 cms barrel length; the caliber rounds 11 mm. It is not so heavy, though.
I would say that, pistols and revolvers having a lanyard ring, sugest that they are military pieces, rather than only for mounted forces; but this is not an absolute rule.
Belgium origin ? maybe yes, but there are no proof marks in it; and even cheap stuff from Belgium usualy bears proof marks. Again this is no absolute rule.
Eventually i have just noticed that the little mark on the barrel also appears on the hammers bases so, for sure, they are intentional marks, although they may belong to some regional maker.
I don't think that at any chance those intriguing rods are or were once ramrods. They are 'too many', being a pair, and are too rigid to spring off the lugs.
BTW, the sugestion that they would lack a wider diameter in the tip for better handling, would not apply to this type of gun. You are referring to an ejection rod, due to cartridge chamber generation, whereas in this muzzle loading version, the wider part would be in the front end, to ram the charge into the barrel. One crazy idea would be that their purpose is to avoid dirt from easily geting into the two separated barrels ... a crazy idea, i said

.
Both barrels are smooth bore.
The uni trigger technique is as i called it, sofisticated, but non troppo. Its action has no mistery; it will activate the hammers that are cocked at one time ... either one or both simultaneously. As this is a single action gun, it's up to the shooter to select what will happen. The right hammer shoots the top barrel. The hammers have two positions: full cocked and half cocked; but you can't call the late a safety position, as it is able to fire in such case ... at least presently

.
Thank you for having posted your opinnions, folks; ready for the next ones.
Fernando

Hi again Fernando,
I have researched the mark shown but can not locate it in any of the books I have, so that remains a mystery. You state the barrel length at 14cm--about 5 1/2inchs---not that big really. My pick is that it is a civilian item rather than military, as the quality does not appear to be that good. The lanyard ring, whilst typically a military feature, is also used to retain possession on some civilian items. It could also have been added at a later stage.
I do hope that one of our members can postively identify it for you.
Regards Stuart

27th December 2008, 06:49 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	A double barrel pistol for coments I have filed this as a hunting pistol, somehow because i wouldn't know what else to call it. The date would be XIX century; i think you folks agree ? I ignore its country of origin ... what do you say ... somewhere in Europe? I don't think this is a factory piece, but instead a private production. Some of the fittings and the irregular barrels drilling make it look a bit rustic to me. Actually there is a one milimeter difference between the two bores. Two interesting points i am raising: Firstly, there is only one trigger for the two hammers, which denotes some sofistication in the action, specially for a locally made pistol ... am i right ? Secondly, those two rods between the barrels, one in each side; what the hell are they for ? Note that they are loose, in that they can be turned around, but they can not be taken out their places. Note also that the barrels are not welded to eachother; we can actually see through a slight gap between them. If this were a gun with a more technical aspect, we could think of some fantasy like the rods being for avoiding some kind of vibration, or other type of advanced reason. It's just that it is very hard to accept that these 'loose locked' rods are just there for decoration . There is a minuscle mark on the barrel side, which might be the maker's mark, but i am not certain. Coments will be apreciated ... and not necessarily plausible coments Fernando . Attached Images

28th December 2008, 07:57 AM	#4
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Anandalal N. Greetings. I have been following the discussion for a whilst but signed up only now. I am from Sri Lanka with an abiding interest in ancient arms and armour presently with a specific interest in the history of firearms in Sri Lanka (Ceylon). Fernando, I have sent a PM to you. The pistol illustrated is very interesting. The rods would be ramrods if they could be taken out but you say they can only be turned? Seeing that the barrels are over and under with a single trigger but two hammers, could they dictate choice in which barrel fires at a given time or do they have a set frequency i.e. the top firing first and then the bottom or vice-versa? Best Regards. Last edited by Anandalal N.; 28th December 2008 at 08:19 AM.

28th December 2008, 11:55 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I can't help Hi Fernando, I can't help but I have been hitting the books, all I can say is I LIKE IT!!! A very cool little pistol, you'd feel pretty safe with a pair of those stuffed in your breeches. Gav

27th December 2008, 08:23 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	Hi Fernando, and a Happy New Year. Another interesting pistol. As you don't give dimensions I won't comment on its heritage, but the lanyard ring suggests maybe for use from horseback or somesuch, so that if the user accidently dropped it it could be retrieved easily.It does not appear to be for military use though as I said size may give a clue. As far as origin goes, I agree that somewhere in Europe seems likely, and I would guess at Belgium. The stock decoration (such as it is) is a quite common on cheap Belgian pistols. I have absolutely no idea as to the reason for the rods---snap on bayonet??. My initial though before I saw it had two hammers, was that it was a turnover pistol, but it is obviously not that! All the Best Stuart

28th December 2008, 12:29 AM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Fernando. I'd also say Belgian, unless there are proof marks that say otherwise. The two rods would be ramrods, at one time. I can't see very well what I'm looking at, but is the rod held in by a lug at the muzzle? Normally, this lug would be not too pronounced, and the ramrod could be sprung past it. In this case, the lug looks a bit bigger, as if it has had some more metal attached. Originally, the tip of the ramrod would be of larger diemeter, thus making it easier to get a hold of. Do the locks have half and full cocking positions? Probably the one that is full-cocked would fire, whilst the half-cocked one would be relatively "safe"! Are both barrels smooth-bored? Sometimes one is rifled and of a different calibre to the other. Happy New Year from Canada! Richard.

28th December 2008, 10:09 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	First of all, welcome to the Forum, Anandalal. Now, let's see what we have here, that may be answered. This pistol size is considerable, with 14 cms barrel length; the caliber rounds 11 mm. It is not so heavy, though. I would say that, pistols and revolvers having a lanyard ring, sugest that they are military pieces, rather than only for mounted forces; but this is not an absolute rule. Belgium origin ? maybe yes, but there are no proof marks in it; and even cheap stuff from Belgium usualy bears proof marks. Again this is no absolute rule. Eventually i have just noticed that the little mark on the barrel also appears on the hammers bases so, for sure, they are intentional marks, although they may belong to some regional maker. I don't think that at any chance those intriguing rods are or were once ramrods. They are 'too many', being a pair, and are too rigid to spring off the lugs. BTW, the sugestion that they would lack a wider diameter in the tip for better handling, would not apply to this type of gun. You are referring to an ejection rod, due to cartridge chamber generation, whereas in this muzzle loading version, the wider part would be in the front end, to ram the charge into the barrel. One crazy idea would be that their purpose is to avoid dirt from easily geting into the two separated barrels ... a crazy idea, i said . Both barrels are smooth bore. The uni trigger technique is as i called it, sofisticated, but non troppo. Its action has no mistery; it will activate the hammers that are cocked at one time ... either one or both simultaneously. As this is a single action gun, it's up to the shooter to select what will happen. The right hammer shoots the top barrel. The hammers have two positions: full cocked and half cocked; but you can't call the late a safety position, as it is able to fire in such case ... at least presently . Thank you for having posted your opinnions, folks; ready for the next ones. Fernando

29th December 2008, 04:08 AM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Fernando, I was not talking about an ejection rod. I know it's a muzzleloader. Some double over and unders have two ramrods, one each side, with a lug retaining them. they are sprung past the lug to withdraw them. A muzzleloader should have a larger tip to the rod, to ram home the charge, rather than just a rod. R. Gav, Not if they can go off at half cock you wouldn't!