Turkish Ribbon Pattern

ALEX · 9th April 2007, 09:59 AM

The blade on top exhibits regular so-called twisted star pattern. The one on the bottom has a few rows of stars separated by very fine white horizontal lines. This is what I consider to be a good Turkish Ribbon pattern

BTW: The lower blade was restored using previously unknown to me powder mixed with water. It was given to me by a friend, and it is supposed to be from Middle Eastern mountain or river. The powder looks, feels and smells just like a plain mud/dirt, it easily mixes with water, and definitely has no acid in it. The pattern developed almost instantaneously upon application. I only have a small amount of this stuff, and have no idea where to get more. Anyone heard of this before?

Battara · 9th April 2007, 07:06 PM

Depends on the powder. I would suspect that it does contain a mild acid. Alum does and is used for pickling, but mixed with water becomes a mild acid.

Nice blade and patterns. Would you post pictures of the rest of the piece?

ALEX · 11th April 2007, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Nice blade and patterns. Would you post pictures of the rest of the piece?

Here are some pics. The straight sword with silver scabbard has an interesting stamp with Armenian name "Kevorg", in Armenian, but the blade looks Turkish. The scabbard looks Arabic, perhaps mid-late 20th Cent. I am still trying to "figure this out". I threw in another possible Armenian/Turkish sword just for size comparison:-), and a Persian sword because it looks good:-) Let me know your observations.

ALEX · 13th April 2007, 03:30 PM

Posting pictures of the stamps on the possible "Kevorg?" blade, and another stamp and writing on another, possibly Caucasian blade. The writing seems Armenian with "1890" on top. The long blade is light, thin and flexible. I'd not go to battle with it, but it has some small nicks/scars on the edge...
Perhaps Kirill will have some comments on both blades (Thanks Kirill!!!).

Jeff D · 13th April 2007, 05:08 PM

Hi Alex,

For the middle saber you might want to look at Chechnia. There is a similar example in Askhabov's Chechen Arms on Pg 46. It is described as a Mountaineer's weapon.

Jeff

S.Al-Anizi · 13th April 2007, 10:16 PM

Hello there Alex,

very nice collection you've got there

That sword certainly is a trade blade in arab mounts. The blade also is very beautiful, its quite rare to find a damascus blade in arab mounts. Though the mounts do not seem old.

As to the dirt, in my trip to Riyadh, when I was talking to that old man, Al-Suffayyan, I asked him about how to restore a wootz pattern, I mentioned the common method of acid etching, and he looked at me in a funny way. He told me he, and locals used to use a special kind of dirt, the name escapes me at the moment, which is brought from 'a far away land'. Once it touches the blade, the 'veins' as he called them, bloom out. I guess you somehow got hold of this same dirt.

ariel · 13th April 2007, 11:16 PM

Several comments:
1. I still vividly remember a half-witted post here from a person who no longer participates. The discussion was about a typical Turkish sword with Armenian attribution. Obviously, this was made by an Armenian master from Istanbul. He sneered " Armenian? In Turkey?" Obviously, this person had no idea that Armenians were THE artisans of the Caucasus, Turkey and Iran. Miller and Astvatsaturyan amply show that most of the swordmakers in Tbilisi, Vladikavkaz, Akhaltsikhe and other swordmaking centers were ethnic Armenians. Puruntzuzov, Papov, Khatchatur, Zinaida Koshtoyanz were all Armenians.
There are plenty of Turkish military regulation swords coming from Armenian factories. Thus, the first blade (almost straight one ) is a trade blade of Armenian manufacture as per name, with unknown initial history, remounted in Arabian style.
2. The second one( Ottoman handle) looks like a European one, very popular in the region. There were multiple locally-made blades imitating European markings, and it seems to be the case he as well. The markings superficially look European, German, most likely, but are more "home-made", there is an Islamic stamp and the fullers look Caucasian. The writings are the key: faked European blades had rather illiterate spellings. I would vote for Caucasian origin.
3. The last one ( shamshir) is not Persian, it is Georgian: see the decorations. The lion with the upturned tail is as Georgian as can be. Can't see the markings on the blade, but there seems to be a golden cartouche on the blade. Inscription?
Overall, superbly interesting collection! I would love to get hold of some (all would be even better!) of them

ALEX · 15th April 2007, 02:47 PM

First and foremost - thanks for responding and for your valuable comments and compliments. As always, great to see so many knowledgeable and observant members here.

Jeff, I thought of Caucasus origin. However, the presence of a fairly nice "Turkish Ribbon" pattern initially persuaded me to think of it as Turkish made. Hence, the question: Was the "Turkish Pattern" produced outside Turkey, i.e. in Caucasus? Lastly, based on a valuable input from another member - the blade is of Tiflis origin, early/mid 19th Cent, and the stamp is NOT in Armenian as I thought, but in Arabic.

Al-Anizi, You're absolutely correct - the mounts on the straight sword are latter additions, perhaps mid 20th Century.
The dirt powder called "Trap Tahdeer" ("Trap" is Arabic for dirt). This works really well on contact, and it can stay active for very long time after mixing with water. The results are not as defined and of high black and white contrast as with acid etch, but it leaves the surface with smooth water-like light grayish effect, and the "veins" to appear under the surface.

Ariel, thanks for pointing out that the mounts are Georgian (shame on me for not knowing it). The blade is Persian though with typical Lion and "O Fulfiller of Needs" stamps. The area in and around the stamps is heavily pitted, not like the rest of the blade. What could be a reason for that?

Jeff Pringle · 15th April 2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

The area in and around the stamps is heavily pitted, not like the rest of the blade. What could be a reason for that?

When someone was sanding the rust pits out of the blade during refurbishing/restoration, they did not sand as much near the stamps for fear of erasing them?

Jeff D · 15th April 2007, 04:31 PM

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the update. Tiflis origin makes perfect sense. You may find similar patterns in Georgian Kindjals. Was there any mention on which aspects localize the blade to Tifilis rather than else where in the Caucasas?
The mounts on this one certainly do look like modern Arabic additions, which I wouldn't argue with Saqr over, however i have seen Georgian mounts with similar quillion blocks ( http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=2408 ). Perhaps it may be original?

Very nice collection and I look forward to seeing more.

Jeff

P.S. Often there is more corrosion and pitting under the the scabbard mounts as this traps and holds mosture.

ariel · 15th April 2007, 09:32 PM

Jeff,
I hate to argue with Artzi, but IMHO there is nothing Georgian in the saber from his site: South Arabian, pure and simple.

S.Al-Anizi · 15th April 2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the update. Tiflis origin makes perfect sense. You may find similar patterns in Georgian Kindjals. Was there any mention on which aspects localize the blade to Tifilis rather than else where in the Caucasas?
The mounts on this one certainly do look like modern Arabic additions, which I wouldn't argue with Saqr over, however i have seen Georgian mounts with similar quillion blocks ( http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=2408 ). Perhaps it may be original?

Very nice collection and I look forward to seeing more.

Jeff

P.S. Often there is more corrosion and pitting under the the scabbard mounts as this traps and holds mosture.

Nice to hear from you Jeff,

As to that sword, and this style of arab sword especially, I always believed that this style is an import into arabia, I wouldnt think that it goes back any further than the 17th century. As you have noticed, there is alot of resemblance to georgian sabres, and people of central arabia, Nejd, where this sword design is found, call it a 'gurda', not a saif, which itself is a loanword. If you look at other Georgian sabres for auction on Hermann Historica, you will also see how similar they are to arabian sabres, with the quillions, hilts, the obtuse angled pommels, and fine hilt chains. Even when you take alook at the blades, most georgian sabres sport tri-fullered, almost straight blades, a blade feature that more than 50% of all nejdi sabres have. Also, the belts used to suspend Georgian swords, are identical in method and concept to those used to suspend arab sabres. However, it is very hard to certify anything, as most arab sabres as you know sport trade blades, european, persian, indian, caucasian, turkish, and only a few have locally made blades.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat51_p.txt

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat51_p.txt

Unfortunately, knowledge surrounding these swords and their relative time periods is scarce, and I am trying hard to dig it out, from people living in other countries than I am.

9th April 2007, 09:59 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Turkish Ribbon Pattern The blade on top exhibits regular so-called twisted star pattern. The one on the bottom has a few rows of stars separated by very fine white horizontal lines. This is what I consider to be a good Turkish Ribbon pattern BTW: The lower blade was restored using previously unknown to me powder mixed with water. It was given to me by a friend, and it is supposed to be from Middle Eastern mountain or river. The powder looks, feels and smells just like a plain mud/dirt, it easily mixes with water, and definitely has no acid in it. The pattern developed almost instantaneously upon application. I only have a small amount of this stuff, and have no idea where to get more. Anyone heard of this before? Attached Images

13th April 2007, 03:30 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Posting pictures of the stamps on the possible "Kevorg?" blade, and another stamp and writing on another, possibly Caucasian blade. The writing seems Armenian with "1890" on top. The long blade is light, thin and flexible. I'd not go to battle with it, but it has some small nicks/scars on the edge... Perhaps Kirill will have some comments on both blades (Thanks Kirill!!!). Attached Images

13th April 2007, 11:16 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Several comments: 1. I still vividly remember a half-witted post here from a person who no longer participates. The discussion was about a typical Turkish sword with Armenian attribution. Obviously, this was made by an Armenian master from Istanbul. He sneered " Armenian? In Turkey?" Obviously, this person had no idea that Armenians were THE artisans of the Caucasus, Turkey and Iran. Miller and Astvatsaturyan amply show that most of the swordmakers in Tbilisi, Vladikavkaz, Akhaltsikhe and other swordmaking centers were ethnic Armenians. Puruntzuzov, Papov, Khatchatur, Zinaida Koshtoyanz were all Armenians. There are plenty of Turkish military regulation swords coming from Armenian factories. Thus, the first blade (almost straight one ) is a trade blade of Armenian manufacture as per name, with unknown initial history, remounted in Arabian style. 2. The second one( Ottoman handle) looks like a European one, very popular in the region. There were multiple locally-made blades imitating European markings, and it seems to be the case he as well. The markings superficially look European, German, most likely, but are more "home-made", there is an Islamic stamp and the fullers look Caucasian. The writings are the key: faked European blades had rather illiterate spellings. I would vote for Caucasian origin. 3. The last one ( shamshir) is not Persian, it is Georgian: see the decorations. The lion with the upturned tail is as Georgian as can be. Can't see the markings on the blade, but there seems to be a golden cartouche on the blade. Inscription? Overall, superbly interesting collection! I would love to get hold of some (all would be even better!) of them Last edited by ariel; 13th April 2007 at 11:26 PM.

15th April 2007, 02:47 PM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Thanks to All First and foremost - thanks for responding and for your valuable comments and compliments. As always, great to see so many knowledgeable and observant members here. Jeff, I thought of Caucasus origin. However, the presence of a fairly nice "Turkish Ribbon" pattern initially persuaded me to think of it as Turkish made. Hence, the question: Was the "Turkish Pattern" produced outside Turkey, i.e. in Caucasus? Lastly, based on a valuable input from another member - the blade is of Tiflis origin, early/mid 19th Cent, and the stamp is NOT in Armenian as I thought, but in Arabic. Al-Anizi, You're absolutely correct - the mounts on the straight sword are latter additions, perhaps mid 20th Century. The dirt powder called "Trap Tahdeer" ("Trap" is Arabic for dirt). This works really well on contact, and it can stay active for very long time after mixing with water. The results are not as defined and of high black and white contrast as with acid etch, but it leaves the surface with smooth water-like light grayish effect, and the "veins" to appear under the surface. Ariel, thanks for pointing out that the mounts are Georgian (shame on me for not knowing it). The blade is Persian though with typical Lion and "O Fulfiller of Needs" stamps. The area in and around the stamps is heavily pitted, not like the rest of the blade. What could be a reason for that?

9th April 2007, 07:06 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Depends on the powder. I would suspect that it does contain a mild acid. Alum does and is used for pickling, but mixed with water becomes a mild acid. Nice blade and patterns. Would you post pictures of the rest of the piece?

13th April 2007, 05:08 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Alex, For the middle saber you might want to look at Chechnia. There is a similar example in Askhabov's Chechen Arms on Pg 46. It is described as a Mountaineer's weapon. Jeff

13th April 2007, 10:16 PM	#6
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Hello there Alex, very nice collection you've got there That sword certainly is a trade blade in arab mounts. The blade also is very beautiful, its quite rare to find a damascus blade in arab mounts. Though the mounts do not seem old. As to the dirt, in my trip to Riyadh, when I was talking to that old man, Al-Suffayyan, I asked him about how to restore a wootz pattern, I mentioned the common method of acid etching, and he looked at me in a funny way. He told me he, and locals used to use a special kind of dirt, the name escapes me at the moment, which is brought from 'a far away land'. Once it touches the blade, the 'veins' as he called them, bloom out. I guess you somehow got hold of this same dirt.

15th April 2007, 04:31 PM	#10
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Alex, Thanks for the update. Tiflis origin makes perfect sense. You may find similar patterns in Georgian Kindjals. Was there any mention on which aspects localize the blade to Tifilis rather than else where in the Caucasas? The mounts on this one certainly do look like modern Arabic additions, which I wouldn't argue with Saqr over, however i have seen Georgian mounts with similar quillion blocks ( http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=2408 ). Perhaps it may be original? Very nice collection and I look forward to seeing more. Jeff P.S. Often there is more corrosion and pitting under the the scabbard mounts as this traps and holds mosture.

15th April 2007, 09:32 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jeff, I hate to argue with Artzi, but IMHO there is nothing Georgian in the saber from his site: South Arabian, pure and simple.