Sword Blade Marks--ID Please

[kahnjar1]

Does anyone have any idea please as to origin of the marks on the blades of these two swords. Likely to be old european blades, but are on a Kattara and a Yemeni Sayf.
If the Moderators consider that this question would be better on the European Forum, perhaps they could kindly move this thread.
Regards Stuart

[A.alnakkas]

Beautiful pieces i think Ibrahim will be best help here!

[kahnjar1]

I have already asked Ibrahiim if he knew the origin of these, but as these are old European blades he did not know.
Regards Stu

[Michael Blalock]

Very nice swords. That Kattara leather work looks very African. Can we see some close-ups?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Stu,
The blades on these appear to be exactly of forms produced by Kirschbaum's group in mid 19th century Solingen (see Gilkerson p.88, "Boarders Away"). The fuller configurations and blade profiles are remarkably the same. These trade blades were of course widely dispersed, and often had cabalistic images on them. These markings do not correspond to anything specific among the known markings in Solingen however.
These may well have been 'blanks' which had interpretations of markings applied by native workers, as they seem to be stylized versions of some German markings both contemporary and earlier in unusual combination.

On the nim'cha (or sa'if) the marking seems to be an astral grouping based on a Kirschbaum arrangement of stars with a shooting star in the center from around the 1860s-90s (Bezdek, p.152). Instead of the shooting star, the old dual tone crescent moon of Toledo, later used by Solingen is used, and the stars resemble the so called twig marks of other trade blades in similar arrangement to the Kirschbaum marking.
This type Arabian sword was popular in Red Sea trade and this does appear to have African style in degree on the scabbard.

The kattara of course also was a sword highly present with Omani merchants and the Zanzibar trade and in degree to the Red Sea. The leatherwork here seems very much African also but that is simply my impression. The blade again corresponds to the Kirschbaum mid 19th century blades and fullering, the marks in the fullers seem like distorted stamps of the twig type. The incised mark on the blade may represent either a stylized marking seen on some Armenian work on qamas or possibly an interpretation of a cross on church spire used by Wibbeltrath, Solingen c.1870s though that seems unlikely.

Both swords probably early 20th century refurbished, and very nicely done! These remained traditional working and tradition weapons for a very long time.

All best regards,
Jim

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Michael Blalock

Very nice swords. That Kattara leather work looks very African. Can we see some close-ups?

Here we go................The actual leather color is the one in the pic with the scabbard. The "red" version is poor photography....sorry!

[kahnjar1]

Hi Jim, Thanks for your enlightened comments. I do not have the book you are refering to, but appreciate your input.
Regards Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Jim, Thanks for your enlightened comments. I do not have the book you are refering to, but appreciate your input.
Regards Stu

You're most welcome Stu, I appreciate the opportunity to see these markings in context and gives me a chance to evaluate and add to notes. I just add the references for your records as well.

All the best,
Jim

[kahnjar1]

Thankyou Jim