Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 8th January 2020, 04:05 PM   #1
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default Strange flintlock gun

Did anybody here see such a gun with such a strange flintlock? There are no marks or stamps on it and the brass pan reminds me on locks of the Osmanic Empire
corrado26
Attached Images
    
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2020, 05:25 PM   #2
Kmaddock
Member
 
Kmaddock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 532
Default

Hi
Most locks I have seen with Brass Pans have been French so this would be my guess
have a google of
1777 French Flintlock rifle
and you will see similar style
regards
Ken
Kmaddock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2020, 05:54 PM   #3
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

Bizarre !
It does have some 1777 looks indeed but, that whole lock design .
I assume the touch hole is on the first concavity, right ?

.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2020, 06:12 PM   #4
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

No, the touchhole is in the middle. Compare it with the lock of an osmanic pistol
Attached Images
 
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2020, 08:17 PM   #5
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
... No, the touchhole is in the middle...
Oh ... i see now; my bad
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2020, 09:15 PM   #6
SchildaBrit
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 33
Default

"There are no marks or stamps on it and the brass pan..."

I'm not surprised. The fuzzy photos make it difficult to judge, but the cock appears to have been made up by bending sheet metal. And that makes it, in my eyes, a modern effort "in the style of...".

Lockplate also looks like a bit of modern sheet metal, cock fixing screw also modern? It may include some original parts, but the lock assembly as a whole is IMHO not from the same period as the musket - which looks like a cut-down.

All this is just my opinion. Better photos would help.
SchildaBrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2020, 09:41 PM   #7
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 663
Default

Hi

In my modest opinion it is a recently built lock. The cat's foot has a strange shape, it is not the C-shaped cat's foot (cock) of Boutet's productions, or in "gooseneck" or in the reinforced, like some English weapons or the "chien a espalet" "of the French. The anti-friction wheel in the frizzen spring, the rain-proof bowl and the cock top are seen in fine weapons, be they dueling or sports, never in military weapons. It is known that Ottoman weapons copied European designs, so they find "rainproof". For me, brass or bronze was chosen because they are easier to work. It would be necessary to see the inside of the lock, to see if something is discovered

Affectionately
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2020, 09:16 AM   #8
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

.............and here some better fotos of the lock. I don't believe that the lock is a modern make, some items show the number "2" and its fit into the wooden stock is very good. It is correct that the frizzen roll normally has been not in use at any army but perhaps this gun goes back to the order of an infantry officer who wanted to have a faster shooting flintlock gun?!?!
corrado26
Attached Images
    

Last edited by corrado26; 9th January 2020 at 10:02 AM.
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2020, 09:58 AM   #9
Kmaddock
Member
 
Kmaddock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 532
Default

A lot better pictures, thanks
It all looks v v clean to me and the screw heads are so perfect
My gut would say this is not a 200 year old gun lock
also those who know about fonts might recognise if the number 2 is a modern or not font
woodwork does look well aged though and if the fit is good this confuses me
Thanks for showing
Ken
Kmaddock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2020, 11:35 AM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

The assembly numbers (#2) would place this lock in a not so modern time period ... unless its maker wanted to play tricks.
It would be nice to hear again from Fernando K, when he looks at these so much better pictures.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2020, 11:41 AM   #11
Pukka Bundook
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 803
Default

I can not say anything about the age of this lock, other than it looks very competently made.
It is very well put together if 'new'.
Very good fit where the breast of the cock rests on the fence of the pan.
Very pleasing little lock!
I do not think it is new, although it looks that way.. well cleaned maybe?
Pukka Bundook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2020, 12:01 PM   #12
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 663
Default

Hi

Now, with better photos, I discover other inconsistencies. If the frizeen screw is located from the inside (inside the lock) to the outside, the spring screw would be too: here the screw has its head on the outside. In addition, as Corrado says, if a lock was wanted that fired faster, the real dock would be fixed with a nut nut, Here the design is the traditional one. The guard, in these models, is fixed in the front, by an ear that penetrates the wood, and which in turn, is fixed by a pin. Here it is fixed by a screw-O but, by a plate that at its end has the transport ring, also fixed by a pin. In other interventions, it has been said that the adjustment of the wood is very good, and that is not proof of authenticity. The wood may have been aged. A good test would be to establish the passage of the screws of the lock. It is known that formerly the screws were not standardized, and each factory had its own system. If the steps are modern, it would be one more test

Sorry for the translator. Affectionately
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2020, 01:11 PM   #13
Kmaddock
Member
 
Kmaddock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 532
Default

Normally on antique guns of mine the bit on the trigger that pushes up the sear is quiet worn but it looks perfect on this gun
Maybe just never used much though
Regards
Ken
Attached Images
 
Kmaddock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2020, 02:44 PM   #14
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,164
Default

I talked with a former owner of this gun, who had collected nothing else than guns, carbines and pistols made by the same factory: It was made in the "Königlich Württembergische Gewehrfabrik Oberndorf" (Royal wuerttembergian Arms Factory of Oberndorf/Neckar, the later MAUSER Works and today Heckler & Koch).
As you can see from the fotos attached the pan of the Wuerttemberg pistole M 1817 has an iron piece left of the pan which was the rest of the cock after having fired. The same is with the brass pan of the gun in question.
The reason why this gun has been made in this factory is regrettably unknown.
Maybe it was a test gun or really a gun made on private order.
corrado26
Attached Images
  
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2020, 02:59 PM   #15
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,617
Default

So that does it ... right, folks ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2020, 04:32 PM   #16
SchildaBrit
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 33
Default Sometimes photos are misleading..

..as in this case.

Corrado, I must revise my opinion in favour of your gun.

The blurred photos in the first post washed out the microscopic surface irregularities in the lock plate and cock, leading me to the false impression that they had been fabricated from modern sheet metal. With the new, improved photos I can now see that this is not the case. That is not a brand-new lock, but this revised opinion does not mean that it is original to the gun. The cut-out for the lock appears to have been scraped - presumably to aid the fitting of the lock - at a later stage. Note the lighter surfaces where (I think) the wood has been scraped.

As you say, some parts are marked with a 2. It bothers me that the 2 on the frizzen is on the outside. Assembly sets were - in the period of the original musket - marked with short file strokes on the inside. as marks on the outside would spoil the appearance. File strokes were easy to apply, whereas stamping with numbers suggests a more modern kit approach.

"...has an iron piece left of the pan which was the rest of the cock after having fired. The same is with the brass pan of the gun in question."

I believe the usual term for this feature is a "fence". The incorporation of a fence into the iron or brass portion of the pan is common enough that it does not help to identify the origin.

"It was made in the "Königlich Württembergische Gewehrfabrik Oberndorf"
Corrado, with all due respect to the person who told you, what is the evidence for that? Is it just hearsay?

Last edited by SchildaBrit; 9th January 2020 at 05:04 PM. Reason: added "fence" comment
SchildaBrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.