Two new (to me) Keris from Epray for comment

Rafngard · 7th January 2016, 03:30 AM

Hello All,

The midwinter Minnesota sun was compliant (enough) and I finally had a chance to take a few pics of two new acquisitions. Apologies for the quality of the pics, and the cat hair visible in the pics, I had 3 furry "helpers" while taking the photos.

The first keris is a "Dutch soldier's keris" from Madura. If I understand correctly, the style puts it somewhere between the late 19th century and WWII. I know these are a little touristy, but I still like them, particularly the ones like this, with a lion carved on the sampir. I also like that the woman on the figural hilt has what could be whiskers. Perhaps that's what attracted my furry "helpers." I also really enjoy the built in mendak and pendok.

The Wilah itself looks like it has some age, and could use an etching, something that I'm afraid is beyond me at present. there is some clear pattern welding present. The tip, well, looks a bit chewed up, and the edge is nicked in at least one place.

The second Keris looks to my (untrained) eye to be a keris from Java. The seller thought it might be mid 20th century, but who knows? The ukiran is in the in the Surakarta style, as is the Sampir, in the gayaman. I suspect the (brass?) pendok is a replacement, given how the top edge doesn't quite match up to the sampir, though maybe this could be due to some sort of climate based wood shrinkage? Occam's razor says replacement I think. Some of the wood inside the pendok is damaged near the tip.

I really love the wilah, especially the "topographic" finish. I think the pamor is ngulit semangka, but I'm not good at identifying such things. I don't know that I have the vocabulary at this point to describe the ricikan, except to say that in looking at my pics I see rust I'd previously missed. This has been subsequently taken care of.

Did I get the above right? Wrong? Please let me know! I look forward to any and all comments, corrections, and opinions!

Thanks,
Leif

Rafngard · 7th January 2016, 03:34 AM

More pics

Rafngard · 7th January 2016, 03:37 AM

....yet more

Rafngard · 14th January 2016, 06:52 PM

No comments?

Thanks,
Leif

David · 14th January 2016, 07:48 PM

Hi Leif. Sorry to see no one has commented yet. Truth be told these aren't particularly anything to write home about and you have probably already said all that needs to be said about them. You are correct that the first one (on left) is what has come to be known as a "soldier's keris" from Madura. Keris in this style dress are often thought of as early souvenir items for returning dutch soldiers. They rarely carry anything beyond a mediocre blade. This one is a pretty low end carving though. I have seen much nicer examples and have always thought i would like to add one of the nicer examples of this style to my collection one day. I am not convinced that the figurative hilt is supposed to be a female figure. What do you base that on?
Your second keris is perhaps a bit better. You are again correct, this dress is Surakarta. The best thing about this dress is that the top sheath and stem are carved all in one piece (iras) which is unusual. It looks to me like the wood needs a bit of TLC. The blade has some deep cut features, but that look kind of sloppy and stiff to me. I would also perhaps put this one in the 20th century as the seller suggested. Not a terrible keris, but nothing extraordinary.

asomotif · 14th January 2016, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

The best thing about this dress is that the top sheath and stem are carved all in one piece (iras) which is unusual.

I am not sure about the "iras" scabbard.
A picture without the pendok can help to be sure.

David · 15th January 2016, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

I am not sure about the "iras" scabbard.
A picture without the pendok can help to be sure.

Possibly, but that line looks more like a deep scratch in the wood. Seems a bit low and at a strange angel to be a joint between gander and wrongko.

Jean · 15th January 2016, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Possibly, but that line looks more like a deep scratch in the wood. Seems a bit low and at a strange angel to be a joint between gander and wrongko.

Hi David,
I agree that the warangka looks iras and about what you say about these 2 krisses. I attach the pic of a better madurese "soldier" kris for reference.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 15th January 2016, 09:35 AM

A gabilan keris if normal size, a brahmana rsi if large size.

Examples in Suminep kraton museum.

The originals, such as Jean's, were not souvenir productions, but a legitimate Madurese form, probably a folk art, used by the common people, this is supposition on my part, I have no evidence to back this up, only what I have gathered from local conversations.

David · 15th January 2016, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The originals, such as Jean's, were not souvenir productions, but a legitimate Madurese form, probably a folk art, used by the common people, this is supposition on my part, I have no evidence to back this up, only what I have gathered from local conversations.

Yes Alan, i have always imaged that this style dress had an origin as a legitimate form, but like you cannot show any evidence to prove the case. But i have seen a few really lovely carvings of these lion sheaths that don't look touristy at all. I believe you have posted some nice examples yourself in the past.

harrywagner · 15th January 2016, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Possibly, but that line looks more like a deep scratch in the wood. Seems a bit low and at a strange angel to be a joint between gander and wrongko.

Maybe, but from a woodworkers perspective that is exactly how you would want to do it. The angle increases the surface area of the joint which makes it stronger.

David · 15th January 2016, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Maybe, but from a woodworkers perspective that is exactly how you would want to do it. The angle increases the surface area of the joint which makes it stronger.

Harry, while i do understand what you are saying, if you spend some time looking at how the gander is generally fitted to the wrongko in these sheaths from this area i think you will see that it is just not the general woodworker's perspective from this culture.

Gustav · 15th January 2016, 11:04 PM

Actually the place and angle for a joint line here is not unusual, for Solo style wrongko. For a better taste the angle could be perhaps even steeper and the line located a bit deeper.

David · 15th January 2016, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Actually the place and angle for a joint line here is not unusual, for Solo style wrongko. For a better taste the angle could be perhaps even steeper and the line located a bit deeper.

You will have to show me examples of that Gustav. On most of the solo sheaths that i have the angle of the joint is less severe if there is an angle at all and the joint does not take place this far down the gandar. With some the joint is right up into the wrongko.
I am still pretty convinced, however, that this sheath is all one piece. Perhaps Leif will get back to us soon to confirm one way or the other.

Gustav · 15th January 2016, 11:45 PM

David, there are many examples in Solyoms book on pages 41, 42 and 47 and should be more in Haryoguritnos.

Rick · 16th January 2016, 12:01 AM

I can't disagree Gustav, but I think, in this particular case, that it is as David says: a deep scratch.

Gustav · 16th January 2016, 12:17 AM

That's possible, Rick.

Rafngard · 16th January 2016, 03:20 AM

Firstly, thank you all for your thoughts on this.

I'm glad I was mostly right on the stuff I said.
I'm also glad I didn't pay terribly much for these.

Mostly, I still likely them, and I'm happy to have an opportunity to learn. It's strange how much easier it is to seem flaws with something (in this case the ricikan on the Surakarta Keris) once someone else points them out.

Secondly, it does infact seem to be a iras scabbard. I'll try to post some pics in the morning. The mark visible is indeed a deep scratch.

Also, the wood inside the pendok is in not great condition.

Thanks,
Leif

7th January 2016, 03:30 AM	#1
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 324	Two new (to me) Keris from Epray for comment Hello All, The midwinter Minnesota sun was compliant (enough) and I finally had a chance to take a few pics of two new acquisitions. Apologies for the quality of the pics, and the cat hair visible in the pics, I had 3 furry "helpers" while taking the photos. The first keris is a "Dutch soldier's keris" from Madura. If I understand correctly, the style puts it somewhere between the late 19th century and WWII. I know these are a little touristy, but I still like them, particularly the ones like this, with a lion carved on the sampir. I also like that the woman on the figural hilt has what could be whiskers. Perhaps that's what attracted my furry "helpers." I also really enjoy the built in mendak and pendok. The Wilah itself looks like it has some age, and could use an etching, something that I'm afraid is beyond me at present. there is some clear pattern welding present. The tip, well, looks a bit chewed up, and the edge is nicked in at least one place. The second Keris looks to my (untrained) eye to be a keris from Java. The seller thought it might be mid 20th century, but who knows? The ukiran is in the in the Surakarta style, as is the Sampir, in the gayaman. I suspect the (brass?) pendok is a replacement, given how the top edge doesn't quite match up to the sampir, though maybe this could be due to some sort of climate based wood shrinkage? Occam's razor says replacement I think. Some of the wood inside the pendok is damaged near the tip. I really love the wilah, especially the "topographic" finish. I think the pamor is ngulit semangka, but I'm not good at identifying such things. I don't know that I have the vocabulary at this point to describe the ricikan, except to say that in looking at my pics I see rust I'd previously missed. This has been subsequently taken care of. Did I get the above right? Wrong? Please let me know! I look forward to any and all comments, corrections, and opinions! Thanks, Leif Attached Images

7th January 2016, 03:34 AM	#2
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 324	More pics Attached Images

7th January 2016, 03:37 AM	#3
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 324	...and ....yet more Attached Images

14th January 2016, 06:52 PM	#4
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 324	No comments? Thanks, Leif

14th January 2016, 07:48 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	Hi Leif. Sorry to see no one has commented yet. Truth be told these aren't particularly anything to write home about and you have probably already said all that needs to be said about them. You are correct that the first one (on left) is what has come to be known as a "soldier's keris" from Madura. Keris in this style dress are often thought of as early souvenir items for returning dutch soldiers. They rarely carry anything beyond a mediocre blade. This one is a pretty low end carving though. I have seen much nicer examples and have always thought i would like to add one of the nicer examples of this style to my collection one day. I am not convinced that the figurative hilt is supposed to be a female figure. What do you base that on? Your second keris is perhaps a bit better. You are again correct, this dress is Surakarta. The best thing about this dress is that the top sheath and stem are carved all in one piece (iras) which is unusual. It looks to me like the wood needs a bit of TLC. The blade has some deep cut features, but that look kind of sloppy and stiff to me. I would also perhaps put this one in the 20th century as the seller suggested. Not a terrible keris, but nothing extraordinary.

15th January 2016, 09:35 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	A gabilan keris if normal size, a brahmana rsi if large size. Examples in Suminep kraton museum. The originals, such as Jean's, were not souvenir productions, but a legitimate Madurese form, probably a folk art, used by the common people, this is supposition on my part, I have no evidence to back this up, only what I have gathered from local conversations.

15th January 2016, 11:04 PM	#13
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	Actually the place and angle for a joint line here is not unusual, for Solo style wrongko. For a better taste the angle could be perhaps even steeper and the line located a bit deeper.

15th January 2016, 11:45 PM	#15
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	David, there are many examples in Solyoms book on pages 41, 42 and 47 and should be more in Haryoguritnos.

16th January 2016, 12:01 AM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	I can't disagree Gustav, but I think, in this particular case, that it is as David says: a deep scratch.

16th January 2016, 12:17 AM	#17
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	That's possible, Rick.

16th January 2016, 03:20 AM	#18
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 324	Firstly, thank you all for your thoughts on this. I'm glad I was mostly right on the stuff I said. I'm also glad I didn't pay terribly much for these. Mostly, I still likely them, and I'm happy to have an opportunity to learn. It's strange how much easier it is to seem flaws with something (in this case the ricikan on the Surakarta Keris) once someone else points them out. Secondly, it does infact seem to be a iras scabbard. I'll try to post some pics in the morning. The mark visible is indeed a deep scratch. Also, the wood inside the pendok is in not great condition. Thanks, Leif