First Post - Identification Assistance Much Appreciated

[oariff]

Hi,

Really happy to be part of this group. I haven't the slightest clue about krises and the family collection has been handed down to me.

Appreciate all the wisdom, knowledge, comments etc.

Thanks.
Omar

[Sajen]

Welcome to the forum Omar,

Looks like a keris picit or pejetan to my eyes. Scabbard is a recent replacement like the handle also. Blade seems to be old but pictures can deceive.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

It might be a Sombro.

try removing the hilt, it is likely to be only a pressure fit, the tang wound with thread or cloth, if it is tight & difficult to remove, leave it . But if you can remove the hilt, & the end of the tang has an eye-hole in it, either broken or unbroken, then we can call it a Sombro.

[JustYS]

Hi Alan,

Beside the eye hole in the end of the tang what are the other characteristics for Sombro style Keris? Ganja iras or not?

Thank you

[Sajen]

All Sombro I've seen had a ganja iras.

Here my example.

[oariff]

Thank you very much. I hv had to look up for most of the terms used in the replies to even understand things.

I hv attached a few more pics of the blade.

As for removing the hilt, am worried that I can't put it together again.:

Cheers.

[JustYS]

Thank you Sajen

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thank you very much. I hv had to look up for most of the terms used in the replies to even understand things.

I hv attached a few more pics of the blade.

As for removing the hilt, am worried that I can't put it together again.:

Cheers.

Welcome to the forum Omar.
It does indeed look to be a Keris Sombro, but a hole in the end of the pesi (tang) would be a defining trademark. These are so called after a legendary female Empu (keris smith) who used to thread these blades to carry them around and if you wanted one in the middle of the bunch the eye in the pesi was usually broken as she pulled it off the string.
As Alan explained, a keris hilt is usually pressure fit into the hilt, This is done by wrapping fabric or thread around the pesi (tang) any sort of screwing the pesi up into the hole in the hilt. I can understand if you choose not to mess with it, but reattaching a hilt in this manner is not very difficult. It is pretty much a "skill" that all keris collectors learn pretty early on. If you are really worried about this then leave it as is, but then you really can't be sure if it is indeed a Sombro keris. If the hilt hasn't been fixed with an adhesive you should be able to turn the hilt back and forth. Wiggling it gently while pulling the back on the hilt should allow it to come off. Once the hilt is off it will be pretty obvious what needs to be done to put it back in place.

[oariff]

Thank you very much Sajen and Alan for your guidance to remove the hilt. It was a pressure fit feeling. I have enclosed 2 more images for you to see.

Were these types of keris more weapons or amulets? For the average common guy?

How would I best summarise this weapon in point form: Origin, blade, dapor etc

Cheers.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, this is a Sombro.

We do not apply tangguh indicators to this form of keris, Keris Sombro is sufficient.

Within Javanese culture & society these keris are considered to be amulets, people seem to have varying ideas about what their talismanic qualities are except that these are invariably positive, however, it does seem to be universally recognised that they will assist in childbirth.

[Sajen]

Yes, clearly a keris Sombro.

The handle looks in your new pictures much better. The mendak (the ring) is a little bit damaged but I would still use it until you find a better one.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

I agree with all here. Hilt may not be "new", but contemporary. As for origin, Jawa, hilt might be East Jawa.

[oariff]

Thanks for the info Alan, David and Sajen.

If one were to be conservative, how old would a blade like this be?

Cheers.

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thanks for the info Alan, David and Sajen.

If one were to be conservative, how old would a blade like this be?

Cheers.

That's always a very difficult question, especially with this type of keris because it has very very stylistic indicators. Your keris does seem to present itself as being very old just from the nature of the erosion on the edges and tip. If it were to be a keris that was actually made by the legendary Empu Nyai Mbok Sombro it would date back to the 13th century Pajajaran kingdom of West Jawa. But the name Keris Sombro has become a style rather than an attribution and there is no real way to determine if this keris was an origin Sombro keris. I would say that it is certainly very old and if you want to be conservative you might say 15th century? Of course the dress in much, much newer.

[oariff]

Originally Posted by David

That's always a very difficult question, especially with this type of keris because it has very very stylistic indicators. Your keris does seem to present itself as being very old just from the nature of the erosion on the edges and tip. If it were to be a keris that was actually made by the legendary Empu Nyai Mbok Sombro it would date back to the 13th century Pajajaran kingdom of West Jawa. But the name Keris Sombro has become a style rather than an attribution and there is no real way to determine if this keris was an origin Sombro keris. I would say that it is certainly very old and if you want to be conservative you might say 15th century? Of course the dress in much, much newer.

Thanks David. Just wondering - Lets say it was Mbok's keris. Taking into consideration her life span, tools, materials etc, how many of these sombro"s would she have produced in her Empu journey.

Would it perhaps be better for me to display this sombro without the hilt and sheath? or will that be considered to be against keris protocol?

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thanks David. Just wondering - Lets say it was Mbok's keris. Taking into consideration her life span, tools, materials etc, how many of these sombro"s would she have produced in her Empu journey.

Would it perhaps be better for me to display this sombro without the hilt and sheath? or will that be considered to be against keris protocol?

Nyai Mbok would be an honorific meaning a senior/elder woman/mother, not her actual name. The question of how many of these keris could have been made in Empu Sombro's lifetime is one i am afraid i could not answer. The stories about her say that she carried these keris threaded on a string to market or around the area to sell them, so that would imply that she had many to sell at a time, and these are rather simply constructed keris that probably did not take a great deal of time to forge. So i suppose she could have sold hundreds of these keris in her lifetime. But who knows. These many stories and legends about her, the most fantastic being that she quenched her blades with her labia. Image doing that hundreds of times! When we deal with stories this old it is impossible to verify much. This is why we say that keris of this form are called Keris Sombro, though that doesn't necessarily mean they were all (if any) actually created by the legendary female Empu.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by oariff

Would it perhaps be better for me to display this sombro without the hilt and sheath? or will that be considered to be against keris protocol?

The one I've shown I display without scabbard and handle, I have another one which has scabbard and handle. I think it's your choice!

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The one I've shown I display without scabbard and handle, I have another one which has scabbard and handle. I think it's your choice!

Regards,
Detlef

My personal feeling about keris is that they should always be kept in their sheath when not being viewed. Many collectors wrap their keris in plastic so as not to have the metal in constant contact with the wood, but my understanding is that the sheath is the home for the wilah and that there is also a spiritual masculine/feminine, lingam/yoni kind of relationship here an that the sheath protects the spirit of the keris. But for a collector outside of the culture these aspects may be less important. So yes, as Detlef says, it is the choice of the collector.