Stubby Sabre with blade marks

fernando · 28th October 2017, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the grip looks like it should be wrapped in something, twisted/braided wire, leather, rayskin, anything.

Sure thing

.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th October 2017, 10:19 AM

Napolionic Helmet Style Pommel... 44 stamp no idea.... x marks no idea ... Wild Guess...see below of that family... This below made by Klingethal...french-cuiriassers-xiii-pattern-sword-with-1815-napoleonic-blade.jpg

M ELEY · 30th October 2017, 05:48 PM

An interesting refurbished piece indeed! I can't add anything to what the others have already mentioned. There is one thing, though. Are we sure this brass hilt pattern is from a French example? The American patterns from the time of the Mexican War up to the Indian Wars heavily copied the French patterns, m1840 Cavalry sabers, m1860 infantry, m1870, etc, etc. I am no expert on CW types, but I've seem them in catalogs.

If you identified the hilt as being an American pattern, the game is afoot! As you probably know, the Confederacy were non-industrial and during the conflict, were in dire need of weapons, materials, blacksmiths to fashion everything! The 'rebs' made do with what they had, refurbishing old sword parts with other hilts, blades, knuckle bows. One only has to look at so called 'Dog River' swords to see the plethora of odd examples present. Indeed, some of the finest Confederate swords were made by both German and French imports!

So...you might (and I do mean might in small print

) have a Confederate cavalry sword, Blockade Runner's cutlass, etc. Exciting thought, but without much research and a darn big helping of luck, it is just a weak theory...
Mark

kronckew · 30th October 2017, 06:51 PM

i missed this one at auction today, listed as french cavalry sabre.

very similar to the above, but hilt is more complete with grip wires. as noted the phrygian cap sabres of the french were copied by the USA, and a number were actually imported from france.

fernando · 30th October 2017, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... sabres of the french were copied by the USA, and a number were actually imported from france.

Sure thing !

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2017, 06:54 PM

Good point Mark, the Confederates were indeed looking for swords from any source, and I have seen news ads for people to bring in their swords 'for the cause'. They were of course far from industrialized and there were swords produced in farm equipment and tool manufacturers, such as Nashville Plow Works who produced limited numbers of swords.
It has often been held that 'Dog River' swords were essentially Confederate used swords of sundry sources, or 'unknown', however there really was a facility on Dog River which did assemble or furbish swords.

We cannot forget Mexico, who did of course have profound French influence and in mid to third quarter 19th century used hilts of the French style as used by US forces in the M1840 and M1860 hilts. I have a heavy cutlass type sabre similar with the 'M1840' type hilt from Republic of Mexico and so marked on the blade.

The hilt on this example is 'of the form' but does not have the bars as the other, just one as I can see. The blade seems of course 18th c. but these were diffused all over during the American Revolution.

The 44 seems a 'rack number' or inventory mark.

Jon MB · 2nd November 2017, 03:02 PM

Thanks for your input guys! All very handy comments & further pointers for research.

Any further comments on the blade markings though?

The piece came from Bristol, in the UK. Not sure that much can be inferred from that though...

30th October 2017, 10:19 AM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Napolionic Helmet Style Pommel... 44 stamp no idea.... x marks no idea ... Wild Guess...see below of that family... This below made by Klingethal...french-cuiriassers-xiii-pattern-sword-with-1815-napoleonic-blade.jpg Attached Images

30th October 2017, 05:48 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	An interesting refurbished piece indeed! I can't add anything to what the others have already mentioned. There is one thing, though. Are we sure this brass hilt pattern is from a French example? The American patterns from the time of the Mexican War up to the Indian Wars heavily copied the French patterns, m1840 Cavalry sabers, m1860 infantry, m1870, etc, etc. I am no expert on CW types, but I've seem them in catalogs. If you identified the hilt as being an American pattern, the game is afoot! As you probably know, the Confederacy were non-industrial and during the conflict, were in dire need of weapons, materials, blacksmiths to fashion everything! The 'rebs' made do with what they had, refurbishing old sword parts with other hilts, blades, knuckle bows. One only has to look at so called 'Dog River' swords to see the plethora of odd examples present. Indeed, some of the finest Confederate swords were made by both German and French imports! So...you might (and I do mean might in small print ) have a Confederate cavalry sword, Blockade Runner's cutlass, etc. Exciting thought, but without much research and a darn big helping of luck, it is just a weak theory... Mark Last edited by M ELEY; 31st October 2017 at 12:54 AM.

30th October 2017, 06:51 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	i missed this one at auction today, listed as french cavalry sabre. very similar to the above, but hilt is more complete with grip wires. as noted the phrygian cap sabres of the french were copied by the USA, and a number were actually imported from france. Attached Images

31st October 2017, 06:54 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Good point Mark, the Confederates were indeed looking for swords from any source, and I have seen news ads for people to bring in their swords 'for the cause'. They were of course far from industrialized and there were swords produced in farm equipment and tool manufacturers, such as Nashville Plow Works who produced limited numbers of swords. It has often been held that 'Dog River' swords were essentially Confederate used swords of sundry sources, or 'unknown', however there really was a facility on Dog River which did assemble or furbish swords. We cannot forget Mexico, who did of course have profound French influence and in mid to third quarter 19th century used hilts of the French style as used by US forces in the M1840 and M1860 hilts. I have a heavy cutlass type sabre similar with the 'M1840' type hilt from Republic of Mexico and so marked on the blade. The hilt on this example is 'of the form' but does not have the bars as the other, just one as I can see. The blade seems of course 18th c. but these were diffused all over during the American Revolution. The 44 seems a 'rack number' or inventory mark.

2nd November 2017, 03:02 PM	#7
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Thanks for your input guys! All very handy comments & further pointers for research. Any further comments on the blade markings though? The piece came from Bristol, in the UK. Not sure that much can be inferred from that though...