Origins of this yatagan.

estcrh · 6th November 2015, 02:05 AM

Since this yatagan is now listed as being "sold" I was wondering if any forum member has an idea of were this yatagan may have come from. I can not remember seeing a scabbard like this one before.

Battara · 6th November 2015, 06:18 AM

Off hand the Balkans.

Kubur · 6th November 2015, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Off hand the Balkans.

No I don't think.
Not all the Yatagan are from the Balkans.
What make you think that?
It's a very strange yatagan...

estcrh · 6th November 2015, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

No I don't think.
Not all the Yatagan are from the Balkans.
What make you think that?
It's a very strange yatagan...

Unfortunately there are not a lot of images but it is strange looking, I have gone through a lot of images online and that I have saved but I can not find anything like it, it is large and has some interesting details like the notches carved into the ears of the hilt and a stylized star and crescent on the scabbard chape.

Battara · 7th November 2015, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

No I don't think.
Not all the Yatagan are from the Balkans.
What make you think that?
It's a very strange yatagan...

I have seen many yataghans from Turkey and other places besides the Balkans, I agree.

However, one of the classic signs of Balkan manufacture is the form of the hilt "ears" - when large like these are and in this form, they are more than not from the Balkans. Pieces from mainland Turkey exhibit much smaller "ears" if you can even call them that.

The one exception seems to come from Sarayevo where there is a form without "ears" at all, but more of a form of pistol grip.

One other note, the mounts on the top and bottom of the scabbard look more European to me, though close ups pictures would help.

i will agree that even for a Balkan example, this one is a little strange or unusual.

estcrh · 7th November 2015, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Off hand the Balkans.

My first thought was Balkins as well but not for any particular reason other than the scabbard, but once I started looking around I could not find a similar example.

Battara · 7th November 2015, 06:23 AM

It is possible that the scabbard is a later replacement. I base this on the style of workmanship. If so this might explain some of the questions regarding the scabbard.

Certainly the stone on top next to the hilt is a later addition. Traditionally Ottomans did not place one there (and it would fall of anyway) and there is the issue of the style of stone setting which is more modern and not traditionally Ottoman.

estcrh · 7th November 2015, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

It is possible that the scabbard is a later replacement. I base this on the style of workmanship. If so this might explain some of the questions regarding the scabbard.

Certainly the stone on top next to the hilt is a later addition. Traditionally Ottomans did not place one there (and it would fall of anyway) and there is the issue of the style of stone setting which is more modern and not traditionally Ottoman.

I think if you look around enough you can find stones mounted just about anywere on a yatagan, but I agree with the type of setting, it is not what you would expect to see on an Ottoman weapon. You are probably right about the scabbard being a replacement, the style should give some clue to its origin but I can not remember seeing anything similar even on non-yatagan swords.

Kubur · 7th November 2015, 08:48 AM

The wooden grip are clearly modern replacement.

The scabbard looks good to me.

Kubur · 7th November 2015, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Certainly the stone on top next to the hilt is a later addition. Traditionally Ottomans did not place one there (and it would fall of anyway) and there is the issue of the style of stone setting which is more modern and not traditionally Ottoman.

I don't agree at all, many examples on the web...

Bob A · 7th November 2015, 09:56 PM

The stone on the sword in question is faceted, which implies, to me at any rate, a (relatively) modern origin. Its setting seems consistent with the rest of the fittings on the hilt.

estcrh · 17th January 2016, 10:53 AM

I still have not seen anything similar to this yatagan, here are some additional pictures. 28 inches long.

Kubur · 17th January 2016, 11:03 AM

I like your yatagan, the date on the blade is 1825.
Is the central part of the scabbard silver?

Congrat!!

estcrh · 17th January 2016, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I like your yatagan, the date on the blade is 1825.
Is the central part of the scabbard silver?

Congrat!!

Kuber, thanks for the info.

estcrh · 17th January 2016, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Is the central part of the scabbard silver?

It seems to be a silver tone in the middle area.

ariel · 17th January 2016, 11:27 AM

In the last set of pics, the fourth from below, scabbard fitting: isn't there a half-moon and a star?

estcrh · 17th January 2016, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

In the last set of pics, the fourth from below, scabbard fitting: isn't there a half-moon and a star?

To me it looks like a half moon and star, sort of stylized. The tip of the scabbard looks like a fish head, it reminds me of the balkan style scabbard tip.

estcrh · 17th January 2016, 12:18 PM

This yatagan is similar in some ways, the blade has gold marking on one side and silver on the other, the scabbard ends are similar as is the grip which may be wood, it is the closest I have seen.

Helleri · 18th January 2016, 01:22 AM

This is probably the least helpful comment. But when in it's scabbard, it looks like a fish...just sayin'.

Kubur · 18th January 2016, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helleri

This is probably the least helpful comment. But when in it's scabbard, it looks like a fish...just sayin'.

It's not crazy at all as a lot of Ottoman scabbards have a terminal with a fish head or sea monster head. Just note that the double tip is maybe a symbol of the zulfikar...very common amongst arm makers in the Balkans...

Battara · 19th January 2016, 12:12 AM

Thanks for the close ups. Now I see that this is truly more unusual than I originally thought. Though still leaning Balkan, it now does not seem as Balkan as I thought now that I see these later picture close ups.

Regarding the 2nd example, what region does it come from in the Ottoman Empire?

Also I agree with Kubur regarding the fish/monster scabbard finial. Quite common on Ottoman yataghans, both on sword and dagger styles.

ariel · 19th January 2016, 01:52 AM

The one with a silver handle has round non-striated red stones ( corals?) .
I recall that Elgood mentioned it as a specific sign of manufacture in Foca.

estcrh · 19th January 2016, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thanks for the close ups. Now I see that this is truly more unusual than I originally thought. Though still leaning Balkan, it now does not seem as Balkan as I thought now that I see these later picture close ups.

Regarding the 2nd example, what region does it come from in the Ottoman Empire?

Also I agree with Kubur regarding the fish/monster scabbard finial. Quite common on Ottoman yataghans, both on sword and dagger styles.

Thanks to everyone who commented.

Is this the yatagan you mean (Regarding the 2nd example, what region does it come from in the Ottoman Empire?), if so it is from the Met.

Ottoman (Anatolian or Balkan) yatagan / yataghan, dated 1802–3, steel, silver, gold, coral, Length 29 in. (73.66 cm) Length of blade, 23 1/8 in. (58.72 cm), Wt. 3 lb. 8 oz. (1588 g). Met Museum. The yatagan was popular throughout the Ottoman Empire. It is distinguished by a single-edged blade that curves slightly inward and by a hilt with no guard and two flared wings at the pommel.

TVV · 20th January 2016, 01:14 AM

I am sorry but am I the only one here who feels we are debating late 20th century (at best) fittings? Referring to the yataghan starting this thread and the one in post 18, not the Foca examples of course.

Teodor

ariel · 20th January 2016, 03:15 AM

Theodor,
IMHO, you might be correct re. wooden handle and scabbard but the blade and metal handle fittings ( again, IMHO) seem to be old.
I am wondering whence it came to the market. I have seen so many crude and thoughtless renovations from Bulgaria....

estcrh · 20th January 2016, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I am sorry but am I the only one here who feels we are debating late 20th century (at best) fittings? Referring to the yataghan starting this thread and the one in post 18, not the Foca examples of course.

Teodor

Anything is possible when it comes to such items, do you have a particular reason for thinking that this is recent work, have you seen similar examples?

estcrh · 20th January 2016, 03:57 AM

The engraving on both blades and the hilts seem to be quite similar in my opinion.

TVV · 20th January 2016, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Anything is possible when it comes to such items, do you have a particular reason for thinking that this is recent work, have you seen similar examples?

Ariel already summed it up nicely: while the bolster and the hilt band may be original to the blades, the wooden hilts and the scabbards are most likely modern. The material on the hilt is wrong, which is a result of traditional materials such as walrus ivory or dark horn being hard to obtain. And the style of the decoration is way off as well: it looks like a modern artist's own interpretation, as opposed to period craftsmen who usually repeated a few motifs, found across a wide range of surviving specimens. Finally, the workmanship of the scabbard metal parts is too crude to believe it could have passed the standards of the esnafs (guilds) back in the day.

Now, this does not suggest any attempt to deceive. I just consider these to be a modern attempt at restoration.

Teodor

P.S. Ariel is correct that there is a multitude of "artists" who restore old weapons in Bulgaria, with results varying in quality and appearance. I am also sure that Bulgaria is not unique in this regard. I can provide examples, but I do not feel modern replicas should be the focus of these fora.

estcrh · 21st January 2016, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Now, this does not suggest any attempt to deceive. I just consider these to be a modern attempt at restoration.

I can provide examples, but I do not feel modern replicas should be the focus of these fora.

I do not think anyone here will object to examples that can be learned from being posted.

ariel · 21st January 2016, 11:45 AM

What makes my antennae twitching is the apparently different metals of the bolster parts and the scabbard fittings, the clumsiness of the scabbard's mouth ( the real things are almost in line with the handle and not almost twice as thick as here) and the crudeness of the scabbard decoration. I am also very uneasy about the " fish head": usually it is almost like a separate detail, turned up and more like a "dolphin-head". This one is short, stubby and looks like a herring:-) .

The more I look at it, the less I like it.

But the blade is unquestionably real.

TVV is correct: Bulgaria is not the only one place in the world exporting benign or not so benign:-) "restorations". Simply I saw quite a lot of things on E-Bay coming from there with similar features and very similar wooden ears of a non-traditional contour.

6th November 2015, 02:05 AM	#1
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Origins of this yatagan. Since this yatagan is now listed as being "sold" I was wondering if any forum member has an idea of were this yatagan may have come from. I can not remember seeing a scabbard like this one before. Attached Images

17th January 2016, 10:53 AM	#12
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	I still have not seen anything similar to this yatagan, here are some additional pictures. 28 inches long. Attached Images

17th January 2016, 12:18 PM	#18
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	This yatagan is similar in some ways, the blade has gold marking on one side and silver on the other, the scabbard ends are similar as is the grip which may be wood, it is the closest I have seen. Attached Images

20th January 2016, 03:57 AM	#27
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	The engraving on both blades and the hilts seem to be quite similar in my opinion. Attached Images

6th November 2015, 06:18 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Off hand the Balkans.

7th November 2015, 06:23 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	It is possible that the scabbard is a later replacement. I base this on the style of workmanship. If so this might explain some of the questions regarding the scabbard. Certainly the stone on top next to the hilt is a later addition. Traditionally Ottomans did not place one there (and it would fall of anyway) and there is the issue of the style of stone setting which is more modern and not traditionally Ottoman.

7th November 2015, 08:48 AM	#9
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The wooden grip are clearly modern replacement. The scabbard looks good to me.

7th November 2015, 09:56 PM	#11
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 409	The stone on the sword in question is faceted, which implies, to me at any rate, a (relatively) modern origin. Its setting seems consistent with the rest of the fittings on the hilt.

17th January 2016, 11:03 AM	#13
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I like your yatagan, the date on the blade is 1825. Is the central part of the scabbard silver? Congrat!!

17th January 2016, 11:27 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In the last set of pics, the fourth from below, scabbard fitting: isn't there a half-moon and a star?

18th January 2016, 01:22 AM	#19
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Boulder Creek, CA. Posts: 202	This is probably the least helpful comment. But when in it's scabbard, it looks like a fish...just sayin'.

19th January 2016, 12:12 AM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thanks for the close ups. Now I see that this is truly more unusual than I originally thought. Though still leaning Balkan, it now does not seem as Balkan as I thought now that I see these later picture close ups. Regarding the 2nd example, what region does it come from in the Ottoman Empire? Also I agree with Kubur regarding the fish/monster scabbard finial. Quite common on Ottoman yataghans, both on sword and dagger styles.

19th January 2016, 01:52 AM	#22
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The one with a silver handle has round non-striated red stones ( corals?) . I recall that Elgood mentioned it as a specific sign of manufacture in Foca.

20th January 2016, 01:14 AM	#24
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	I am sorry but am I the only one here who feels we are debating late 20th century (at best) fittings? Referring to the yataghan starting this thread and the one in post 18, not the Foca examples of course. Teodor

20th January 2016, 03:15 AM	#25
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Theodor, IMHO, you might be correct re. wooden handle and scabbard but the blade and metal handle fittings ( again, IMHO) seem to be old. I am wondering whence it came to the market. I have seen so many crude and thoughtless renovations from Bulgaria....

21st January 2016, 11:45 AM	#30
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What makes my antennae twitching is the apparently different metals of the bolster parts and the scabbard fittings, the clumsiness of the scabbard's mouth ( the real things are almost in line with the handle and not almost twice as thick as here) and the crudeness of the scabbard decoration. I am also very uneasy about the " fish head": usually it is almost like a separate detail, turned up and more like a "dolphin-head". This one is short, stubby and looks like a herring:-) . The more I look at it, the less I like it. But the blade is unquestionably real. TVV is correct: Bulgaria is not the only one place in the world exporting benign or not so benign:-) "restorations". Simply I saw quite a lot of things on E-Bay coming from there with similar features and very similar wooden ears of a non-traditional contour.