Afghan or Ottoman?

TVV · 21st November 2015, 07:16 PM

A friend of mine recently acquired this knife. He thinks it is Ottoman, because of a stamp that looks like a tughra. To me, the hilt has an Afghan feel. What do you think?

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2015, 08:07 PM

Looking forward to input on this interesting knife, which certainly has the characteristic hilt form of Afghan choora. The blade is of course nothing to do with these forms, and I cannot place exactly what it resembles.

The brass filled cartouche does seem to have a device which has some resemblance to a tughra, but I think this may be more Persian related affectation.

I have seen transcaucasian weapons, I believe of the 'Black Sea yataghan' type with these kinds of discs with this kind of design in them. I cannot recall offhand exactly where these were positioned on the blade, but did think of the feature as unusual. While the tughra was of course an Ottoman device, it was used in Qahar Persia as well, and those influences reigned heavy in Central Asia, so perhaps there may be the connection.

mahratt · 21st November 2015, 10:15 PM

This is not the Afghan stamp. Turkey - possible. I think it's made from a broken saber blade.

TVV · 23rd November 2015, 06:23 PM

Thank you very much for the quick responses. I had not considered the possibility of tughras used outside of the Ottoman context.

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2015, 10:48 PM

In my post #2 , I mentioned this brass disc feature with some type of design or letters within, and found on the distinct horned hilt sword with dramatic recurved blade known often as the 'Black Sea yataghan' which I had.
This was eventually classified as a Laz bichagi, but in earlier works (Triikman& Jacobsen, 1941) had been termed a Kurdish-Armenian yataghan (Seifert, 1962).
Research revealed these curious swords as being from Erzerum, Trebizond and other areas of the Transcaucusus, and found even in Georgia.

I hope I can find photos of the disc in the sword I mention, but I do recall it seemed unusual to see this kind of brass disc in the blade.

I think that since most of the areas mentioned in research on these swords over the past 15 years here have shown them mostly from regions in Turkey, or under Ottoman control. While I am not sure that this device is properly considered a tughra, it seems that they are known in the blades of these regions at least incidentally.

As Mahratt notes, this disc has no connection in my opinion with Afghan markings, but most likely with Transcaucasian origin, and may indeed be from an apparently dramatically re-profiled sword blade.
It is most interesting to see it matched to a clearly Afghan type choora hilt .

21st November 2015, 07:16 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	Afghan or Ottoman? A friend of mine recently acquired this knife. He thinks it is Ottoman, because of a stamp that looks like a tughra. To me, the hilt has an Afghan feel. What do you think? Attached Images

21st November 2015, 08:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Looking forward to input on this interesting knife, which certainly has the characteristic hilt form of Afghan choora. The blade is of course nothing to do with these forms, and I cannot place exactly what it resembles. The brass filled cartouche does seem to have a device which has some resemblance to a tughra, but I think this may be more Persian related affectation. I have seen transcaucasian weapons, I believe of the 'Black Sea yataghan' type with these kinds of discs with this kind of design in them. I cannot recall offhand exactly where these were positioned on the blade, but did think of the feature as unusual. While the tughra was of course an Ottoman device, it was used in Qahar Persia as well, and those influences reigned heavy in Central Asia, so perhaps there may be the connection.

21st November 2015, 10:15 PM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	This is not the Afghan stamp. Turkey - possible. I think it's made from a broken saber blade.

23rd November 2015, 06:23 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,597	Thank you very much for the quick responses. I had not considered the possibility of tughras used outside of the Ottoman context. Teodor

23rd November 2015, 10:48 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	In my post #2 , I mentioned this brass disc feature with some type of design or letters within, and found on the distinct horned hilt sword with dramatic recurved blade known often as the 'Black Sea yataghan' which I had. This was eventually classified as a Laz bichagi, but in earlier works (Triikman& Jacobsen, 1941) had been termed a Kurdish-Armenian yataghan (Seifert, 1962). Research revealed these curious swords as being from Erzerum, Trebizond and other areas of the Transcaucusus, and found even in Georgia. I hope I can find photos of the disc in the sword I mention, but I do recall it seemed unusual to see this kind of brass disc in the blade. I think that since most of the areas mentioned in research on these swords over the past 15 years here have shown them mostly from regions in Turkey, or under Ottoman control. While I am not sure that this device is properly considered a tughra, it seems that they are known in the blades of these regions at least incidentally. As Mahratt notes, this disc has no connection in my opinion with Afghan markings, but most likely with Transcaucasian origin, and may indeed be from an apparently dramatically re-profiled sword blade. It is most interesting to see it matched to a clearly Afghan type choora hilt .