Sudanese? Throwing knife

Andy Stevens · 22nd September 2005, 09:57 AM

I have had this item hanging around for a while and have never really managed to find out much about it. From my limited reference works I have always given it a Sudanic origin, I do however find these throwing weapons somewhat confusing and would welcome all opinions.

The knife is 63cm long, it looks to be of good age. All the edges have been sharp at some point in its life. I have included a photo of the blade markings.The bottom of the handle has the remains of a leather grip. Regards Andy

Tim Simmons · 22nd September 2005, 05:13 PM

That is splendid with what looks like a super dark patina. The funny thing is I am beginning to think that many of these things were shiny bright when in use. Sudanic is a broad term, I would say, for it is worth, it was from the Nigerian and Cameroon areas. Many historians and ethnologists have made exhaustive lists of throwing knives and yet we still know very little about them. Tim

Andy Stevens · 22nd September 2005, 06:42 PM

Hello Tim
We must have that cup of tea sometime!! Have you any idea ofthe age of this item? It came from Arundel and was originally part of a large collection of Ethnic items that was housed in the town.

Tim Simmons · 22nd September 2005, 06:50 PM

I thought I recognised it, you got it off that chap where you go down an alley way and then upstairs into his shop. I have bought from him, sometimes he has good things cheap enough to buy. Tim

Freddy · 22nd September 2005, 06:53 PM

Very nice throwing knife. I have never seen this form......and I like it.

In one of my books, 'Seltene Afrikanische Kurzwaffen' (rare African short weapons) by Manfred A. Zirngibl (1983), I found a picture of another throwing knife. It has a different form, but I noticed that the decoration was similar.

According to Zirngibl the origin of this piece is the Sudan. This is what he writes :

The design of these two throwing knives indicates their belonging to the 'North Group' mentioned in the introduction.
Although Germann described the knife pictured on the right in his 1922 article "African Iron and Wood Throwing Weapons in the Leipzig Etnographic Museum" as a "Fundj" throwing knife, the modern opinion is that this type of weapon was most likely used exclusively in the eastern Sudan and in the region between the White and Blue Nile. This view is also held by Pat R. Mc Naughton in his article, "The Throwing Knife in African History".
Especially with the help of this weapon type we can see to what degree the classification efforts of earlier authors diverge. Frobenius, for example, lists the home of this throwing iron as being the Kordofan region on the eastern shore of Lake Chad whereas Dr. D. Olderogge of Leningrad states that it is a Haussa creation. The Englishman L. F. Nalder, on the other hand, maintains that the Ingassana are the true creators. The Austrian Junker, however, flatly declares it to be a throwing knife of the Blue Nile.
The piece shown here with the leather covered handle an the leather braiding midway along the snake-shaped blade has a delicately engraved design on both sides.
It is easier to classify the plain-looking knife on the left. It was acquired by Werner Fischer from the Zulgo, the northeastern neighbours of the Matakam. The exact location was Mogode, a village tot the South of Mokolo.

Look at the decoration on the second picture.

From the text, mentioned above, you can understand that it is not easy to identify these throwing irons.

Freddy · 22nd September 2005, 07:04 PM

I have a throwing knife in my collection, similar to the one on the left (see pics above).

It took quite some time to identify it. A very knowledgeable person directed me to the book, I mentioned before. Although my piece is smaller, it has a similar form.

This throwing knife has a very simple design. The handle is covered in cloth. Total length : 53 cm. Origin : Zulgo (Eastern Sudan).

P.S. : For those interested : Zirngibl published two books on African Weapons. These books are still available at the publisher. Here's the link :

https://ssl.kundenserver.de/s8782122...dex.shopscript

Freddy · 22nd September 2005, 07:05 PM

Sorry, the link I provided is the wrong one.

Just type 'Zirngibl' in the search engine (Schnellsuche).

Freddy

Tim Simmons · 22nd September 2005, 08:17 PM

Freddy in those first pictures you post, are they not extra special ones made of brass or is that just how they appear? Tim

Freddy · 22nd September 2005, 08:22 PM

No, Tim. They are made of iron. My scans look a bit 'yellowish'.

Andy Stevens · 24th September 2005, 08:42 AM

I would just like to thank Tim and Freddy for the info and book links. And for Tim you are right about the shop in Arundel, the owner is called Bunter and he does sometimes get some very nice bits, in fact the large number of antique shops in the town can make for some interesting shopping!!

22nd September 2005, 09:57 AM	#1
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Sudanese? Throwing knife I have had this item hanging around for a while and have never really managed to find out much about it. From my limited reference works I have always given it a Sudanic origin, I do however find these throwing weapons somewhat confusing and would welcome all opinions. The knife is 63cm long, it looks to be of good age. All the edges have been sharp at some point in its life. I have included a photo of the blade markings.The bottom of the handle has the remains of a leather grip. Regards Andy Attached Images

22nd September 2005, 06:50 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I thought I recognised it, you got it off that chap where you go down an alley way and then upstairs into his shop. I have bought from him, sometimes he has good things cheap enough to buy. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd September 2005 at 07:03 PM. Reason: SPELLING!!!Spelling SpellingSpellingSpelling

22nd September 2005, 07:05 PM	#7
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	link ? Sorry, the link I provided is the wrong one. Just type 'Zirngibl' in the search engine (Schnellsuche). Freddy

22nd September 2005, 05:13 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	That is splendid with what looks like a super dark patina. The funny thing is I am beginning to think that many of these things were shiny bright when in use. Sudanic is a broad term, I would say, for it is worth, it was from the Nigerian and Cameroon areas. Many historians and ethnologists have made exhaustive lists of throwing knives and yet we still know very little about them. Tim

22nd September 2005, 06:42 PM	#3
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Hello Tim We must have that cup of tea sometime!! Have you any idea ofthe age of this item? It came from Arundel and was originally part of a large collection of Ethnic items that was housed in the town.

22nd September 2005, 06:53 PM	#5
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Very nice throwing knife. I have never seen this form......and I like it. In one of my books, 'Seltene Afrikanische Kurzwaffen' (rare African short weapons) by Manfred A. Zirngibl (1983), I found a picture of another throwing knife. It has a different form, but I noticed that the decoration was similar. According to Zirngibl the origin of this piece is the Sudan. This is what he writes : The design of these two throwing knives indicates their belonging to the 'North Group' mentioned in the introduction. Although Germann described the knife pictured on the right in his 1922 article "African Iron and Wood Throwing Weapons in the Leipzig Etnographic Museum" as a "Fundj" throwing knife, the modern opinion is that this type of weapon was most likely used exclusively in the eastern Sudan and in the region between the White and Blue Nile. This view is also held by Pat R. Mc Naughton in his article, "The Throwing Knife in African History". Especially with the help of this weapon type we can see to what degree the classification efforts of earlier authors diverge. Frobenius, for example, lists the home of this throwing iron as being the Kordofan region on the eastern shore of Lake Chad whereas Dr. D. Olderogge of Leningrad states that it is a Haussa creation. The Englishman L. F. Nalder, on the other hand, maintains that the Ingassana are the true creators. The Austrian Junker, however, flatly declares it to be a throwing knife of the Blue Nile. The piece shown here with the leather covered handle an the leather braiding midway along the snake-shaped blade has a delicately engraved design on both sides. It is easier to classify the plain-looking knife on the left. It was acquired by Werner Fischer from the Zulgo, the northeastern neighbours of the Matakam. The exact location was Mogode, a village tot the South of Mokolo. Look at the decoration on the second picture. From the text, mentioned above, you can understand that it is not easy to identify these throwing irons.

22nd September 2005, 07:04 PM	#6
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I have a throwing knife in my collection, similar to the one on the left (see pics above). It took quite some time to identify it. A very knowledgeable person directed me to the book, I mentioned before. Although my piece is smaller, it has a similar form. This throwing knife has a very simple design. The handle is covered in cloth. Total length : 53 cm. Origin : Zulgo (Eastern Sudan). P.S. : For those interested : Zirngibl published two books on African Weapons. These books are still available at the publisher. Here's the link : https://ssl.kundenserver.de/s8782122...dex.shopscript

22nd September 2005, 08:17 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Freddy in those first pictures you post, are they not extra special ones made of brass or is that just how they appear? Tim

22nd September 2005, 08:22 PM	#9
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	No, Tim. They are made of iron. My scans look a bit 'yellowish'.

24th September 2005, 08:42 AM	#10
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	I would just like to thank Tim and Freddy for the info and book links. And for Tim you are right about the shop in Arundel, the owner is called Bunter and he does sometimes get some very nice bits, in fact the large number of antique shops in the town can make for some interesting shopping!!