MY FIRST BARONG

Flavio · 7th May 2006, 01:13 PM

HERE IS MY FIRST BARONG. I HAVE TO SAY THAT THESE WEAPONS, I MEAN MORO'S WEAPONS IN GENERAL, ARE VERY BEAUTIFUL. I LIKE THE SOUND OF THESE BLADES WHEN YOU HEAT THEM WITH NAILS

ALL COMMENTS ARE WELCOME

Spunjer · 7th May 2006, 02:02 PM

you think it's beautiful now. wait till after you etch the blade and see the lamenation...

anywho, it's a nice barung, bro. early 20th cent.

Flavio · 7th May 2006, 03:00 PM

[QUOTE=Spunjer]you think it's beautiful now. wait till after you etch the blade and see the lamenation...[QUOTE]

Hey Spunjer, i hope that you mean that after the etching i will like it more an more...

Ferguson · 7th May 2006, 03:15 PM

Hey Spunjer, i hope that you mean that after the etching i will like it more an more...

[/QUOTE]

Yes, I'm sure that's what he meant. I'll bet it's beautiful!

Steve

Spunjer · 7th May 2006, 03:22 PM

exactly

! thanks ferguson..

Flavio · 7th May 2006, 03:39 PM

Thank you very much guys

Tim Simmons · 7th May 2006, 04:16 PM

No,no,no leave it as it is, look at the beautiful sheen of the forming patina. It is in A1 condition and no damage to the handle. Just my feelings folks.

Rick · 7th May 2006, 04:45 PM

I don't think we've ever discussed whether these swords were polished bright by their original owners and makers .

Anyone care to comment on this ?

Battara · 9th May 2006, 01:50 AM

If I remember correctly, these were originally etched when they were finished. Not sure if they were always kept in this condition, but I do know that subsequent Euro/American owners who loved "shiny" things would polish these up to be very shiny, even if it meant taking off any markings on the blade

(it has happened). This mentality also resulted in often throwing away the scabbards

(they did this to American Civil War swords as well

).

ariel · 9th May 2006, 02:36 AM

I guess it is a matter of taste: in Arabian countries old blades are always polished by the collectors to the mirror-type shine. European collectors prefer their blades clean but patinated (at least what they say in the Saudi book "Weapons of the Islamic World").

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2006, 06:59 AM

Just letting a natural patina develop means the only intervention is a light clean with the finest steel wool and oil now and again, No harm done, and if the previous owner or owners have done so, the object remains pretty much as found. Without one trying to leave the world a better place

.

Spunjer · 9th May 2006, 12:15 PM

i just find filipino swords unkept very disrespectful. here's a kris that was 'westernized', as explained by battara, where the blade was polished. the odd thing was, whoever did it neglected the gangya and the handle was left to frayed.

Spunjer · 9th May 2006, 12:22 PM

only after etching the blade did the true beauty came out..

ariel · 9th May 2006, 01:20 PM

I can see your point: that was exactly as the master envisioned it.
After all, if a respectable museum acquires a lost Rembrandt, they clean it first.

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2006, 01:37 PM

I too can see your point in this case as the damage had already been done by aggressive polishing the ruination of many antique metal items. The etching is in the form of restoration it looks great . On the other hand, to take an example like the thread starter which is a nice clean barong with a developing patina, you can see the quality of the blade and one could always look with the aid of a glass, etching a bit like needlessly rubbing it with a rough abrasive paper, is as damaging as polishing. In my mind.

Ian · 9th May 2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i just find filipino swords unkept very disrespectful. here's a kris that was 'westernized', as explained by battara, where the blade was polished. the odd thing was, whoever did it neglected the gangya and the handle was left to frayed.

Ron:

The gangya area can be tedious to clean -- lots of little nooks and crannies -- and I think people get lazy with their "restoration" work, and leave that area to its natural state. We see this on many kris, even those coming out of Mindanao today. To some extent corrosion of the gangya may be related to kris being kept in scabbards that don't completely cover that area, but I think many times it's because the area is just too much of a chore to clean well.

Ian

Rick · 9th May 2006, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I too can see your point in this case as the damage had already been done by aggressive polishing the ruination of many antique metal items. The etching is in the form of restoration it looks great . On the other hand, to take an example like the thread starter which is a nice clean barong with a developing patina, you can see the quality of the blade and one could always look with the aid of a glass, etching a bit like needlessly rubbing it with a rough abrasive paper, is as damaging as polishing. In my mind.

To be honest Tim if I might disagree ; the subject Barung seems to have been polished after the fact .

I don't think that is the original finish

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2006, 05:30 PM

I think you may well be right Rick. If I can see the blade quality through my PC then in the flesh it must look more than acceptable, all I would ask Flavio is to err on the side of caution. I would rather it was mine I have to say.

nechesh · 9th May 2006, 06:14 PM

Hey Tim. i don't think brushing this blade with a little warm vinegar on a sunny afternoon is liable to do much damage to the blade. The idea of doing such an etch isn't necessarily to see the blade quality, but to showcase the pattern within. Sometimes these patterns can be very beautiful. On the otherhand, i have a kris that i treated this way and found that the pattern wasn't really much to look at afterall so i lightly polished it away. In either case though, i think the blade looked/looks much nicer then when i first recieved it.

Rick · 9th May 2006, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think you may well be right Rick. If I can see the blade quality through my PC then in the flesh it must look more than acceptable, all I would ask Flavio is to err on the side of caution. I would rather it was mine I have to say.

You're not going to go Moro on us are you Tim .

Philiphilia can be phun .

/ducks

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2006, 06:51 PM

I am already Barong barmy. This one was shown a long time ago on the old forum. A Borneo Barong. I do not think this blade has any fancy structure, quite a long blade. A formidable general purpose weapon and tool.

Battara · 9th May 2006, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Philiphilia can be phun .

Wonderul Rick. Thank you (I think I'm going to cry

).

Sometimes I leave the top part of the ganga alone to show some evidence of the originial patina.

BTW - Spunger - nice etching job.

Flavio · 9th May 2006, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

To be honest Tim if I might disagree ; the subject Barung seems to have been polished after the fact .

I don't think that is the original finish

Hello Rick, i have bought this one from MR. Yarom, and it is arrived as you can see from pictures. I don't know if this is the original finish or if it was polished.

Battara · 10th May 2006, 01:48 AM

I doubt Artzi would have polished it and left it shiny. I think what Rick was refering is what I mentioned earlier, that later owners early in this century loved shiny things and may have polished this puppy.

Rick · 10th May 2006, 03:40 AM

Correct .
When I look at the close up shot of the hilt I can see what look like polishing marks running across the grain of the steel near the hilt .
Artzi would most likely not do something like this ; he tends to leave such pieces as he finds them as far as I know .

Spunjer · 10th May 2006, 05:48 PM

thanks for the props, battara.

you're right, ian, in that cleaning of the gangya is a bit tedious as with the case on this kris, but there's nothing like vinegar, toothbrush, and baking soda can't do

.

flavio's barung looks as if it was polished awhile back. so the question is:
is it ethical to remove the polish even if it was done back in the early days by whoever brought it here even if the patina is starting to build up over it, or should the blade be etched as it was originally intended by the people who carried it? i prefer the latter. also, who know what lurks behind that sheen?

Oriental-Arms · 10th May 2006, 07:55 PM

Now that the source of this Barong is wide open, I feel I can add my comments:

This is a very nice and complete Barong. We had it since long time and surprisingly none of our many good customer did find it earlier. I can not remember if I polished / etched it or not. Probably not.

To the main question: To polish and etch it or leave the original patina, my opinion is very clear: We should refer to it as the original owner did. If there is a pattern expected to be found than polish and etch it to bring it out. Like other marks of quality (The eyelashes marks, the running wolf, the Assad Allah signature and others) that were copied by blade makers all over the world and at all times, the pattern, either wootz, or pattern welded or laminated is also a mark of quality and the owners were proud to show it to all. During the life time of the blade the owners had to sharpen it and by doing so he erased the pattern and had to polish the blade to bring it back. So why can’t we do the same??

In addition many times polishing and etching brings pleasant surprises. The Barong below was collected in the flea market in New York for next to nothing:

it looks very simple and nothing of particular interest. A light polish and etch brought up this:

It is one of the best laminated Barong blades I have seen.

There was a comment above about the Arabs polishing their blades to mirror polish. To the best of my knowledge it is very wrong. Arabs admire the wootz blades (Johar as they call it) and do every thing to bring it up and show it to all for exactly the same reason: Look what a good blade I have.

A word of caution: Improper polishing and etching may be a very destructive process. If you are not experienced, do not try it without good clear instructions

Battara · 11th May 2006, 07:58 PM

AMEN AND HALLELUJAH ARTZI!

katana · 15th May 2006, 02:17 PM

What an interesting thread, the laminations in the blades are excellent. I have seen a number of highly polished blades on Barongs and had assumed that they were very modern in their construction. I will now look at them with a different eye.
What is involved with the etching process ? Is vinegar used as it is a 'gentle' acid that allows more control over the etching process?

7th May 2006, 01:13 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	MY FIRST BARONG HERE IS MY FIRST BARONG. I HAVE TO SAY THAT THESE WEAPONS, I MEAN MORO'S WEAPONS IN GENERAL, ARE VERY BEAUTIFUL. I LIKE THE SOUND OF THESE BLADES WHEN YOU HEAT THEM WITH NAILS ALL COMMENTS ARE WELCOME Attached Images

7th May 2006, 04:45 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	To Each His Own ... I don't think we've ever discussed whether these swords were polished bright by their original owners and makers . Anyone care to comment on this ?

9th May 2006, 12:15 PM	#12
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i just find filipino swords unkept very disrespectful. here's a kris that was 'westernized', as explained by battara, where the blade was polished. the odd thing was, whoever did it neglected the gangya and the handle was left to frayed. Attached Images

9th May 2006, 12:22 PM	#13
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	only after etching the blade did the true beauty came out.. Attached Images

9th May 2006, 05:30 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I think you may well be right Rick. If I can see the blade quality through my PC then in the flesh it must look more than acceptable, all I would ask Flavio is to err on the side of caution. I would rather it was mine I have to say. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th May 2006 at 05:48 PM.

7th May 2006, 02:02 PM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	you think it's beautiful now. wait till after you etch the blade and see the lamenation... anywho, it's a nice barung, bro. early 20th cent.

7th May 2006, 03:00 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	[QUOTE=Spunjer]you think it's beautiful now. wait till after you etch the blade and see the lamenation...[QUOTE] Hey Spunjer, i hope that you mean that after the etching i will like it more an more...

7th May 2006, 03:15 PM	#4
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Hey Spunjer, i hope that you mean that after the etching i will like it more an more... [/QUOTE] Yes, I'm sure that's what he meant. I'll bet it's beautiful! Steve

7th May 2006, 03:22 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	exactly ! thanks ferguson..

7th May 2006, 03:39 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you very much guys

7th May 2006, 04:16 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	No,no,no leave it as it is, look at the beautiful sheen of the forming patina. It is in A1 condition and no damage to the handle. Just my feelings folks.

9th May 2006, 01:50 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	If I remember correctly, these were originally etched when they were finished. Not sure if they were always kept in this condition, but I do know that subsequent Euro/American owners who loved "shiny" things would polish these up to be very shiny, even if it meant taking off any markings on the blade (it has happened). This mentality also resulted in often throwing away the scabbards (they did this to American Civil War swords as well ).

9th May 2006, 02:36 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I guess it is a matter of taste: in Arabian countries old blades are always polished by the collectors to the mirror-type shine. European collectors prefer their blades clean but patinated (at least what they say in the Saudi book "Weapons of the Islamic World").

9th May 2006, 06:59 AM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Just letting a natural patina develop means the only intervention is a light clean with the finest steel wool and oil now and again, No harm done, and if the previous owner or owners have done so, the object remains pretty much as found. Without one trying to leave the world a better place .

9th May 2006, 01:20 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I can see your point: that was exactly as the master envisioned it. After all, if a respectable museum acquires a lost Rembrandt, they clean it first.

9th May 2006, 01:37 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I too can see your point in this case as the damage had already been done by aggressive polishing the ruination of many antique metal items. The etching is in the form of restoration it looks great . On the other hand, to take an example like the thread starter which is a nice clean barong with a developing patina, you can see the quality of the blade and one could always look with the aid of a glass, etching a bit like needlessly rubbing it with a rough abrasive paper, is as damaging as polishing. In my mind.

9th May 2006, 06:14 PM	#19
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hey Tim. i don't think brushing this blade with a little warm vinegar on a sunny afternoon is liable to do much damage to the blade. The idea of doing such an etch isn't necessarily to see the blade quality, but to showcase the pattern within. Sometimes these patterns can be very beautiful. On the otherhand, i have a kris that i treated this way and found that the pattern wasn't really much to look at afterall so i lightly polished it away. In either case though, i think the blade looked/looks much nicer then when i first recieved it.

9th May 2006, 06:51 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Barong Barmy I am already Barong barmy. This one was shown a long time ago on the old forum. A Borneo Barong. I do not think this blade has any fancy structure, quite a long blade. A formidable general purpose weapon and tool. Attached Images

10th May 2006, 01:48 AM	#24
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I doubt Artzi would have polished it and left it shiny. I think what Rick was refering is what I mentioned earlier, that later owners early in this century loved shiny things and may have polished this puppy.

10th May 2006, 03:40 AM	#25
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	Correct . When I look at the close up shot of the hilt I can see what look like polishing marks running across the grain of the steel near the hilt . Artzi would most likely not do something like this ; he tends to leave such pieces as he finds them as far as I know .

10th May 2006, 05:48 PM	#26
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the props, battara. you're right, ian, in that cleaning of the gangya is a bit tedious as with the case on this kris, but there's nothing like vinegar, toothbrush, and baking soda can't do . flavio's barung looks as if it was polished awhile back. so the question is: is it ethical to remove the polish even if it was done back in the early days by whoever brought it here even if the patina is starting to build up over it, or should the blade be etched as it was originally intended by the people who carried it? i prefer the latter. also, who know what lurks behind that sheen? Attached Images

10th May 2006, 07:55 PM	#27
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Polish and etch it or not Now that the source of this Barong is wide open, I feel I can add my comments: This is a very nice and complete Barong. We had it since long time and surprisingly none of our many good customer did find it earlier. I can not remember if I polished / etched it or not. Probably not. To the main question: To polish and etch it or leave the original patina, my opinion is very clear: We should refer to it as the original owner did. If there is a pattern expected to be found than polish and etch it to bring it out. Like other marks of quality (The eyelashes marks, the running wolf, the Assad Allah signature and others) that were copied by blade makers all over the world and at all times, the pattern, either wootz, or pattern welded or laminated is also a mark of quality and the owners were proud to show it to all. During the life time of the blade the owners had to sharpen it and by doing so he erased the pattern and had to polish the blade to bring it back. So why can’t we do the same?? In addition many times polishing and etching brings pleasant surprises. The Barong below was collected in the flea market in New York for next to nothing: it looks very simple and nothing of particular interest. A light polish and etch brought up this: It is one of the best laminated Barong blades I have seen. There was a comment above about the Arabs polishing their blades to mirror polish. To the best of my knowledge it is very wrong. Arabs admire the wootz blades (Johar as they call it) and do every thing to bring it up and show it to all for exactly the same reason: Look what a good blade I have. A word of caution: Improper polishing and etching may be a very destructive process. If you are not experienced, do not try it without good clear instructions

11th May 2006, 07:58 PM	#28
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	AMEN AND HALLELUJAH ARTZI!

15th May 2006, 02:17 PM	#29
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	What an interesting thread, the laminations in the blades are excellent. I have seen a number of highly polished blades on Barongs and had assumed that they were very modern in their construction. I will now look at them with a different eye. What is involved with the etching process ? Is vinegar used as it is a 'gentle' acid that allows more control over the etching process?