"Salus Vienna Tua" on sword

Foxbat · 24th November 2012, 05:28 PM

What does it mean and what is the origin of that sword?

A Senefelder · 25th November 2012, 03:16 PM

This is identicle to one that I owned ( and unfortunately sold some years ago for taxes ). It is I believe a sword from a member of the guard of the Doge of Venice dating I think to the first half of the 18th century. My initial IDing came from several examples in auction catalogs ( an older Museum of Historical Arms was one, a Fagan Arms was another ) but after listing it on ebay I heard from a number of folks, some who sent me pics of thier examples telling me the same thing as above about it.

Norman McCormick · 25th November 2012, 03:41 PM

Hi,
Your safety/survival 'is' Vienna = Salus Vienna Tua.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 25th November 2012, 03:47 PM

The inscription "Salus Viena Tua" is Latin for (roughly) "You Saved Wien", a motto attributed by the Polish king Jan III to Austrian Franciszek Jerzy Kolschitzky whom, under his task of food supplier, has spied on the Turkish forces and provided information during the battle of Wien (1683).

Foxbat · 25th November 2012, 05:30 PM

Thank you all responders, but the question continues. I have the second sword of that kind in my collection, and that one is all-iron, with iron, not ivory, inlay, and with no etching or any inscription on the blade. There is the description of that sword in Calamandrei's book - see the scan of the page. It indicates the later period, that of Pope Paolo VI.

Should we, then, presume that this particular model was in use over long period of time, with modifications? Or that, perhaps, the all-steel model versus ivory reflected the rank of the bearer?

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2012, 09:24 PM

This is a most interesting court sword, but I am very puzzled by this strange attribution. I hope this isnt taken wrong, but for us 'old timers' these resources, Museum of Historical Arms and of course the well known Fagan catalogs were quite notorious as the origins of a number of rather fanciful classifications now over four decades ago. Certainly they served well as a benchmark for future research on many weapons forms, much as many of the venerable references, but that research often revealed revised positions accordingly.
The Doges of Venice effectively ended as elected officials with the Napoleonic conquest in 1797, and the weaponry and mystery associated with some aspects of this office are well known, most notably the Council of Ten and the famed schiavona swords of the Dalmatian bodyguards.

This sword, of which I am uncertain as far as dimensions, seems to be a commemorative item, and does resemble the also notorious stilettos of Venice which became known as bombardiers stilettos as they were used by gunners in Venetian service. The configuration with pronounced quillon block and short symmetrical quillons resembles that of these stilettos.

My question is why would this motto referring to the Ukrainian hero of the seige of Vienna in 1683, to whom this motto is ascribed by the Polish King Jan Sobieski, be significant to a member of the Doges palace guards, and on a commemorative weapon which appears to be of 19th century with this motif apparantly acid etched. This type etching, while certainly known earlier, seems to have become popular later in the 18th century. It is worthy of note that the Historismus period, most notably toward art and philosophy also affected classical revival interests in other fields as well.

Fernando K · 25th November 2012, 09:54 PM

Hello:

The Latin inscription should be translated as "your health care"

Affectionately. Fernando K

Foxbat · 25th November 2012, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

My question is why would this motto referring to the Ukrainian hero of the seige of Vienna in 1683, to whom this motto is ascribed by the Polish King Jan Sobieski, be significant to a member of the Doges palace guards, and on a commemorative weapon which appears to be of 19th century with this motif apparantly acid etched. This type etching, while certainly known earlier, seems to have become popular later in the 18th century.

Those are my questions exactly. The two samples that I have seem to have come from very different periods, while maintaining great similarities.

fernando · 26th November 2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello:

The Latin inscription should be translated as "your health care"

Affectionately. Fernando K

Most unlikely; you wouldn't commend a guy for heroic services with such kind of motto.
Salus means salvation in Latin
Viena Wien is... as still is in castillion, portuguese...
Tua means yours.
So you may only 'mount' the phrase with these three words

.

.

fernando · 26th November 2012, 02:32 PM

Apparently Franciszek Jerzy Kolschitzky was born in Kulchytsi, then Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth (now Western Ukraine), had noble origins, the so called 'Sas Coat of Arms', which is reperesented by a crescent, stars and an arrow.
Apparently the motto that he was ascribed by King Jan was an addition to his existing coat of arms.
Now, looking twice to the coat of arms of your blade, we can discern a crescent and one star in the more clear side.
So not only the motto was adopted to this sword decoration but also the whole heraldic symbol.

.

A Senefelder · 26th November 2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

I hope this isnt taken wrong, but for us 'old timers' these resources, Museum of Historical Arms and of course the well known Fagan catalogs were quite notorious as the origins of a number of rather fanciful classifications now over four decades ago.

Jim agreed, it was the fact that one of these appeared in both with similar attributations that lead me to to believe that there might be some validity. The catalogs were the better part of two decades apart ( one 60's, one 80's ) so the idea that perhaps one had " pirated " the descritpion from the other seemed somewhat unlikely. As I mentioned, when I put mine up for sale I had several people contact me about the ones they owned and several sent me pictures. One person who sent me pics of thiers was the all steel type, Foxbats second sword pictured. Fox's pic of the steel version worn during the reign on Pope Paul has peaked my interest as it seems some other attributation is likely.

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2012, 05:17 PM

Hi Alan,
Actually those Museum of Historical Arms catalogs remained 'in the main stream' for decades, and I can recall this being sold in vintage bookstores of rare books as recently as several years ago. The Hoffman brothers, who were in Florida, apparantly ceased business decades ago, but thier catalogs lived on as treasured resources despite the degree of erroneous identifications. Admittedly they were largely OK, but we know that others did indeed lift information from these, particularly subsequent dealers. I was buying from the Hoffmans back in the 60s, as well as Fagan, Flayderman, Denner and others. Of all of them I trusted Flayderman's material the most, with Denner running a close second.
However, as I noted, I would not use any catalog references as categoric support for my identifications in researching weapons, but only as a side note with qualifying detail.
I recall one author who had included a classification in his book on a particular weapon form using a transliterated caption from a Russian reference and an entry in a London dealers catalog from years before as support for his identification. The item was subsequently proven to be incorrectly identified, and if I recall correctly the dealer himself had noted that some of his classifications had been incorrectly noted in some of his earlier catalogs.

I once heard someone say, the thing I love most about history is how its always changing! As some historical researchers say, history is not what happened but the descriptions of what happened being written about. With this being the case, there is always new evidence being revealed, and many dealers in catalogs are not usually being deliberately deceptive, but simply using flawed or insufficiently reviewed information.

Naturally all of this is not directed to you Alan, as your knowledge on arms and armour is quite remarkable, but simply as a matter of perspective presented informationally to the reading field out there.

I agree, there is more research to be done on this intriguing sword!
What are the dimensions and other detail? It seems like a very short sword or hanger.

All the very best,
Jim

Foxbat · 26th November 2012, 05:38 PM

Well, actually, it is full-size court sword, with a 30" blade, it is 40" overall in scabbard. I believe the older one is the same in dimensions.

Andreas · 26th November 2012, 05:52 PM

That is indeed the Sas clan coat of arms on the blade, a blason shared by the Kolschitzky family, and the motto is the one that was granted to Franz Georg Kolschitzky after the siege of Vienna. The coronet is probably Austrian, and of a post-1806 form. As for the Papal Chamberlains sword, it is not necessarily from Paul VI’s papacy, as the attached text says that it was used until then, so it could be much older. It also mentions that the throat and chape are polished iron on older examples and nickel on later ones.
Regards,
Andreas

A Senefelder · 26th November 2012, 07:35 PM

Jim, Foxbat can provide actual measurments i'm sure. I haven't had mine for about 7-8 years but the dimensions are that of a smallsword in terms of blade length, hilt length ect.

I grew up on Museum of Historical arms catalogs, dad started doing business with them as you did back in the 60's and got the catalogs for decades. I think they closed up shop in the early or mid 90's if I remember right.

24th November 2012, 05:28 PM	#1
Foxbat Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 69	"Salus Vienna Tua" on sword What does it mean and what is the origin of that sword? Attached Images

25th November 2012, 05:30 PM	#5
Foxbat Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 69	Thank you all responders, but the question continues. I have the second sword of that kind in my collection, and that one is all-iron, with iron, not ivory, inlay, and with no etching or any inscription on the blade. There is the description of that sword in Calamandrei's book - see the scan of the page. It indicates the later period, that of Pope Paolo VI. Should we, then, presume that this particular model was in use over long period of time, with modifications? Or that, perhaps, the all-steel model versus ivory reflected the rank of the bearer? Attached Images

26th November 2012, 02:32 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Apparently Franciszek Jerzy Kolschitzky was born in Kulchytsi, then Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth (now Western Ukraine), had noble origins, the so called 'Sas Coat of Arms', which is reperesented by a crescent, stars and an arrow. Apparently the motto that he was ascribed by King Jan was an addition to his existing coat of arms. Now, looking twice to the coat of arms of your blade, we can discern a crescent and one star in the more clear side. So not only the motto was adopted to this sword decoration but also the whole heraldic symbol. . Attached Images

26th November 2012, 05:38 PM	#13
Foxbat Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 69	Well, actually, it is full-size court sword, with a 30" blade, it is 40" overall in scabbard. I believe the older one is the same in dimensions. Attached Images

25th November 2012, 03:16 PM	#2
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	This is identicle to one that I owned ( and unfortunately sold some years ago for taxes ). It is I believe a sword from a member of the guard of the Doge of Venice dating I think to the first half of the 18th century. My initial IDing came from several examples in auction catalogs ( an older Museum of Historical Arms was one, a Fagan Arms was another ) but after listing it on ebay I heard from a number of folks, some who sent me pics of thier examples telling me the same thing as above about it.

25th November 2012, 03:41 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Your safety/survival 'is' Vienna = Salus Vienna Tua. Regards, Norman.

25th November 2012, 03:47 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	The inscription "Salus Viena Tua" is Latin for (roughly) "You Saved Wien", a motto attributed by the Polish king Jan III to Austrian Franciszek Jerzy Kolschitzky whom, under his task of food supplier, has spied on the Turkish forces and provided information during the battle of Wien (1683).

25th November 2012, 09:24 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	This is a most interesting court sword, but I am very puzzled by this strange attribution. I hope this isnt taken wrong, but for us 'old timers' these resources, Museum of Historical Arms and of course the well known Fagan catalogs were quite notorious as the origins of a number of rather fanciful classifications now over four decades ago. Certainly they served well as a benchmark for future research on many weapons forms, much as many of the venerable references, but that research often revealed revised positions accordingly. The Doges of Venice effectively ended as elected officials with the Napoleonic conquest in 1797, and the weaponry and mystery associated with some aspects of this office are well known, most notably the Council of Ten and the famed schiavona swords of the Dalmatian bodyguards. This sword, of which I am uncertain as far as dimensions, seems to be a commemorative item, and does resemble the also notorious stilettos of Venice which became known as bombardiers stilettos as they were used by gunners in Venetian service. The configuration with pronounced quillon block and short symmetrical quillons resembles that of these stilettos. My question is why would this motto referring to the Ukrainian hero of the seige of Vienna in 1683, to whom this motto is ascribed by the Polish King Jan Sobieski, be significant to a member of the Doges palace guards, and on a commemorative weapon which appears to be of 19th century with this motif apparantly acid etched. This type etching, while certainly known earlier, seems to have become popular later in the 18th century. It is worthy of note that the Historismus period, most notably toward art and philosophy also affected classical revival interests in other fields as well.

25th November 2012, 09:54 PM	#7
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hello: The Latin inscription should be translated as "your health care" Affectionately. Fernando K

26th November 2012, 05:17 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	Hi Alan, Actually those Museum of Historical Arms catalogs remained 'in the main stream' for decades, and I can recall this being sold in vintage bookstores of rare books as recently as several years ago. The Hoffman brothers, who were in Florida, apparantly ceased business decades ago, but thier catalogs lived on as treasured resources despite the degree of erroneous identifications. Admittedly they were largely OK, but we know that others did indeed lift information from these, particularly subsequent dealers. I was buying from the Hoffmans back in the 60s, as well as Fagan, Flayderman, Denner and others. Of all of them I trusted Flayderman's material the most, with Denner running a close second. However, as I noted, I would not use any catalog references as categoric support for my identifications in researching weapons, but only as a side note with qualifying detail. I recall one author who had included a classification in his book on a particular weapon form using a transliterated caption from a Russian reference and an entry in a London dealers catalog from years before as support for his identification. The item was subsequently proven to be incorrectly identified, and if I recall correctly the dealer himself had noted that some of his classifications had been incorrectly noted in some of his earlier catalogs. I once heard someone say, the thing I love most about history is how its always changing! As some historical researchers say, history is not what happened but the descriptions of what happened being written about. With this being the case, there is always new evidence being revealed, and many dealers in catalogs are not usually being deliberately deceptive, but simply using flawed or insufficiently reviewed information. Naturally all of this is not directed to you Alan, as your knowledge on arms and armour is quite remarkable, but simply as a matter of perspective presented informationally to the reading field out there. I agree, there is more research to be done on this intriguing sword! What are the dimensions and other detail? It seems like a very short sword or hanger. All the very best, Jim

26th November 2012, 05:52 PM	#14
Andreas Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ionian Islands, Greece Posts: 96	That is indeed the Sas clan coat of arms on the blade, a blason shared by the Kolschitzky family, and the motto is the one that was granted to Franz Georg Kolschitzky after the siege of Vienna. The coronet is probably Austrian, and of a post-1806 form. As for the Papal Chamberlains sword, it is not necessarily from Paul VI’s papacy, as the attached text says that it was used until then, so it could be much older. It also mentions that the throat and chape are polished iron on older examples and nickel on later ones. Regards, Andreas

26th November 2012, 07:35 PM	#15
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Jim, Foxbat can provide actual measurments i'm sure. I haven't had mine for about 7-8 years but the dimensions are that of a smallsword in terms of blade length, hilt length ect. I grew up on Museum of Historical arms catalogs, dad started doing business with them as you did back in the 60's and got the catalogs for decades. I think they closed up shop in the early or mid 90's if I remember right.