Wootz ingots, where do they all come from?

Jens Nordlunde · 30th October 2005, 09:40 PM

I have, for some time now, wondered from where all the wootz ingots for sale come from?

Some years ago it was seldom to see an ingot for sale, but within the last 3-4 years there seem to be quite a few for sale. I have not heard that they have started to make them again – so where do they all come from, does anyone know?

Jens Nordlunde · 31st October 2005, 02:39 PM

On SFI the same question seems to be up for discussion – have a look here

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...586#post662586

ariel · 31st October 2005, 03:08 PM

Strange as it may sound, I was asking virtually the same question in my posting about Luristani swords.
I think that when the demand is there, some enterpreneurial guy will provide a constant stream of supply, if you get my drift......

Ann Feuerbach · 1st November 2005, 03:57 PM

Hi Jens,
Having looked at many genuine wootz and pulad ingots, all the so called wootz ingots that I have seen for sale, are not genuine. The shape only slighly resembles genuine ingots. They are probably Mill Balls. Mill balls were made of cast iron or cast steel (therefore they can have a dendritic structure is polished and etched, like crucible steel). They were used to crush ore in the 18th century. This can produce a sort of pock marked surface, similar to the crucible steel slag. Beware of these well preseved ingots.
On another note, whether or not they are crucible steel or Mill balls, they are not from an excavation and are therefore looted from industrial archaeological sites. Buying them supports looting, looting causes loss of valuable and irreplaceable information.
I am working on comparing genuine ingots to mill balls.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st November 2005, 04:56 PM

Hi Ann,

Thank you for your answer, which I find very interesting as I for one, never thought that the ingots offered for sale were mill balls. My knowledge of ingots is not very big, so I am glad you told this, as others also can benefit from this information too.

The interests between collectors and scientists can/does differ sometimes, and that can be a problem not easily solved, but the fact that dealers sell these mill balls as wootz ingots is appalling, as there are enough fakes on the market as it is.

You write that the mill balls were used in the 18th century, what did they use before that time?

I would also like to know something more about the ore. When they found an ore, did they cut it out in blocks or in smaller pieces?

I guess that they also sometimes found earth with enough iron to make a production, how did they part the iron ore from the earth?

I know that some ores were inferior and others not. Did they make test melting’s? In some books it is hinted that they did start a production for export at once – but did they?

Ann Feuerbach · 1st November 2005, 06:29 PM

Hi Jens,
At this point in time I am finding out more about Mill balls. Most preindustrial mining used water or just plain labor to crush ores. Assaying of ore was done since the earliest of times. I do not remember many details now...it has been a few years since my archaeometallurgy M.A.

Radharc 59 · 3rd May 2006, 07:37 PM

Hello and greetings to all. I found this forum and thread today, coming over from Primal Fires. I'm a custom knifemaker that works with a variety of materials, including some Damascus barstock, occasionally forging my own. I signed up several years back as a distributor for an Indian company that makes repro pieces, although have since quit bothering with their stuff, due to quality issues and such. Plus, I found it was only serving to distract me from my core business: making my own knives and selling them. ANY-ways, the short of it is that they started offering 'Wootz' a year or two ago, and sent me a lump of it to evaluate. I did polish up a section and etch it, to check out the grain, but they wanted too much $, so I didn't keep it. However, I have an abiding interest in ancient metallurgy and Wootz in particular. I wanted to thank you for all of the information, it's been quite pleasant to read. Also, I would comment that the steel you make, and the subsequent blades, Jeff, is quite impressive. Thanks for sharing that info.

I've been mad about seaxes lately, and stuck (LOL!) on them. Here's the latest creation, for whomever may be interested. I forged the 8" blade out of 01 and left the exxagerated hammered texture on it, to simulate an 'ancient' look. Curly Bubinga handle with Damascus fittings.

Sincerely,
Michael
www.radharcknives.com

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd May 2006, 09:50 PM

Hi Radharch 59,

Welcome to the forum. Nice blade you show

.

Maybe you will find other interesting threads, if you look for magnetic or meteoric iron on the forum – happy search.

Radharc 59 · 4th May 2006, 03:04 AM

Hello Jens,

Thanks for the welcome, and the compliment on my work. I am Irish and Scottish, although American by birth, and am most interested in Celtic pieces. I tend to specialize in the Sgian Dubh most often, but have wanted to make a Seax for awhile, and am working on my third one right now. Here's a pic of the first one, blade a bit shorter, out of 52100, hammered brass fittings, with Bloodwood for the handle.

Michael
www.radharcknives.com

P.S. I shall search out the other forums you suggested. Thank you!

Radharc 59 · 4th May 2006, 03:11 AM

Jens, what is that pic you posted of? Obviously, a knife, and it looks like Wootz steel, but did you make it? What are the decorations made from, gold? That's quite an interesting piece, can you tell us more about it?

Sincerely,
Michael
www.radharcknives.com

Jens Nordlunde · 4th May 2006, 02:10 PM

Hi Michael,

The picture is a detail of a blade – see the attached.
Tegha. Rajasthan. 18th century. The blade is wootz and the decorations are gold koft gari.

Below are a few links, which may be of interest to you, if you make a search, you will of course find a lot more.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292&highlight=meteoric

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=269&highlight=meteoric

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=465&highlight=meteoric

archer · 29th April 2009, 01:55 PM

A few weeks ago Some wootz came on Ebay The seller made this statement " I found this antic piece of wootz cake or wootz bar in Rajasthan, India. It is an find from an old blacksmith of the Sikligar cast.." They sold for reasonable prices so I bid on some and won one mindful that from forum info that they most likely were millballs. It came in and it appears to be wootz after a less than final polishing. What do you think? Always looking for wootz items.
thanks, Steve

ALEX · 1st May 2009, 04:34 PM

Steve,
I am not questioning the statement made by the seller about these cakes coming from India and being antique. It wery well could be. However, there are modern methods to produce them. See this: New_Wootz
The process describes making wootz cakes using cast iron, the freshly crushed green glass, dandelions and iron powder. It also shows four of these cakes, too bad no close-ups available for visual comparison.
I do not know if 'new' cakes will look the same as yours, or whether they'd show the same wootz pattern upon etching, or how to tell if they're authentic. Perhaps Rick will agree to comment.

30th October 2005, 09:40 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Wootz ingots, where do they all come from? I have, for some time now, wondered from where all the wootz ingots for sale come from? Some years ago it was seldom to see an ingot for sale, but within the last 3-4 years there seem to be quite a few for sale. I have not heard that they have started to make them again – so where do they all come from, does anyone know?

3rd May 2006, 07:37 PM	#7
Radharc 59 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11	Wootz Information Hello and greetings to all. I found this forum and thread today, coming over from Primal Fires. I'm a custom knifemaker that works with a variety of materials, including some Damascus barstock, occasionally forging my own. I signed up several years back as a distributor for an Indian company that makes repro pieces, although have since quit bothering with their stuff, due to quality issues and such. Plus, I found it was only serving to distract me from my core business: making my own knives and selling them. ANY-ways, the short of it is that they started offering 'Wootz' a year or two ago, and sent me a lump of it to evaluate. I did polish up a section and etch it, to check out the grain, but they wanted too much $, so I didn't keep it. However, I have an abiding interest in ancient metallurgy and Wootz in particular. I wanted to thank you for all of the information, it's been quite pleasant to read. Also, I would comment that the steel you make, and the subsequent blades, Jeff, is quite impressive. Thanks for sharing that info. I've been mad about seaxes lately, and stuck (LOL!) on them. Here's the latest creation, for whomever may be interested. I forged the 8" blade out of 01 and left the exxagerated hammered texture on it, to simulate an 'ancient' look. Curly Bubinga handle with Damascus fittings. Sincerely, Michael www.radharcknives.com Attached Images

3rd May 2006, 09:50 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Radharch 59, Welcome to the forum. Nice blade you show. Maybe you will find other interesting threads, if you look for magnetic or meteoric iron on the forum – happy search.

4th May 2006, 03:04 AM	#9
Radharc 59 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11	Thank you, Jens Hello Jens, Thanks for the welcome, and the compliment on my work. I am Irish and Scottish, although American by birth, and am most interested in Celtic pieces. I tend to specialize in the Sgian Dubh most often, but have wanted to make a Seax for awhile, and am working on my third one right now. Here's a pic of the first one, blade a bit shorter, out of 52100, hammered brass fittings, with Bloodwood for the handle. Michael www.radharcknives.com P.S. I shall search out the other forums you suggested. Thank you! Attached Images

4th May 2006, 03:11 AM	#10
Radharc 59 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11	Speaking of interesting knives... Jens, what is that pic you posted of? Obviously, a knife, and it looks like Wootz steel, but did you make it? What are the decorations made from, gold? That's quite an interesting piece, can you tell us more about it? Sincerely, Michael www.radharcknives.com

31st October 2005, 02:39 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	On SFI the same question seems to be up for discussion – have a look here http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...586#post662586

31st October 2005, 03:08 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Strange as it may sound, I was asking virtually the same question in my posting about Luristani swords. I think that when the demand is there, some enterpreneurial guy will provide a constant stream of supply, if you get my drift......

1st November 2005, 03:57 PM	#4
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hi Jens, Having looked at many genuine wootz and pulad ingots, all the so called wootz ingots that I have seen for sale, are not genuine. The shape only slighly resembles genuine ingots. They are probably Mill Balls. Mill balls were made of cast iron or cast steel (therefore they can have a dendritic structure is polished and etched, like crucible steel). They were used to crush ore in the 18th century. This can produce a sort of pock marked surface, similar to the crucible steel slag. Beware of these well preseved ingots. On another note, whether or not they are crucible steel or Mill balls, they are not from an excavation and are therefore looted from industrial archaeological sites. Buying them supports looting, looting causes loss of valuable and irreplaceable information. I am working on comparing genuine ingots to mill balls.

1st November 2005, 04:56 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Ann, Thank you for your answer, which I find very interesting as I for one, never thought that the ingots offered for sale were mill balls. My knowledge of ingots is not very big, so I am glad you told this, as others also can benefit from this information too. The interests between collectors and scientists can/does differ sometimes, and that can be a problem not easily solved, but the fact that dealers sell these mill balls as wootz ingots is appalling, as there are enough fakes on the market as it is. You write that the mill balls were used in the 18th century, what did they use before that time? I would also like to know something more about the ore. When they found an ore, did they cut it out in blocks or in smaller pieces? I guess that they also sometimes found earth with enough iron to make a production, how did they part the iron ore from the earth? I know that some ores were inferior and others not. Did they make test melting’s? In some books it is hinted that they did start a production for export at once – but did they?

1st November 2005, 06:29 PM	#6
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hi Jens, At this point in time I am finding out more about Mill balls. Most preindustrial mining used water or just plain labor to crush ores. Assaying of ore was done since the earliest of times. I do not remember many details now...it has been a few years since my archaeometallurgy M.A.

4th May 2006, 02:10 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Michael, The picture is a detail of a blade – see the attached. Tegha. Rajasthan. 18th century. The blade is wootz and the decorations are gold koft gari. Below are a few links, which may be of interest to you, if you make a search, you will of course find a lot more. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292&highlight=meteoric http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=269&highlight=meteoric http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=465&highlight=meteoric Attached Images

29th April 2009, 01:55 PM	#12
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Wootz Cake A few weeks ago Some wootz came on Ebay The seller made this statement " I found this antic piece of wootz cake or wootz bar in Rajasthan, India. It is an find from an old blacksmith of the Sikligar cast.." They sold for reasonable prices so I bid on some and won one mindful that from forum info that they most likely were millballs. It came in and it appears to be wootz after a less than final polishing. What do you think? Always looking for wootz items. thanks, Steve Attached Images

1st May 2009, 04:34 PM	#13
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Steve, I am not questioning the statement made by the seller about these cakes coming from India and being antique. It wery well could be. However, there are modern methods to produce them. See this: New_Wootz The process describes making wootz cakes using cast iron, the freshly crushed green glass, dandelions and iron powder. It also shows four of these cakes, too bad no close-ups available for visual comparison. I do not know if 'new' cakes will look the same as yours, or whether they'd show the same wootz pattern upon etching, or how to tell if they're authentic. Perhaps Rick will agree to comment. Last edited by ALEX; 1st May 2009 at 04:51 PM.