Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th April 2012, 10:55 PM   #1
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default Another of My Kerises

Hello again. I am posting them one by one for comment. This one I know little about other than it may be fairly old due to the wear from many ritual cleaning. I like the hilt, is it just normal Javanese?

Thanks!
Attached Images
      

Last edited by Rick; 18th April 2012 at 03:06 PM.
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 08:54 AM   #2
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,213
Default

Hello Dan,

The hilt style is Madurese but the carving is very rough for Madura standards - possibly village work and a genuine combo.

I believe the blade needs staining before we can give detailed comments.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 08:57 AM   #3
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
Default

Hi,
Agree with Kai, the hilt is just a poor quality and probably recent Madurese piece IMO, you can notice the rough carving.
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 10:21 AM   #4
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

This is a keris from Madura. The whole piece has some age. The ukiran is a recent replacement. Replace the replacement for a good maduran ukiran, stain the blade and give the sheath and the mendak a polish and you have a fine madurese keris.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 11:20 AM   #5
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default

I have some concerns about staining the blade as it very thin in spots.
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 01:04 PM   #6
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,411
Default

Sorry, I doubt that this blade will show after staining a good visible pamor since the blade have had to much corrosion.
like the others I have to say that the hilt is a cheaply worked recent one, not worth to keep.
There are a lot of much better Madura keris offered everywhere so I think that the complete ensemble is not a "keeper".
Sorry Dan, but I think that a open word regarding this keris is much more helpful for you.

Best regards,

Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 02:16 PM   #7
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default

Sorry, it is a "keeper" to me. I happen to like this keris for several reasons. This is a keris with it's own history and character that I can appreciate. Perhaps I am a home to unwanted kerises? If so, I am proud of that.
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 03:09 PM   #8
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

Always buy the best that you can afford .

Buy the keris; not the 'story' .

Quality is always better than quantity .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 03:23 PM   #9
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
Default

Hi Dan,
I can fully understand that you like the blade & sheath of your kris in their original condition because of their age and history, but no way for the hilt!
I attach a picture of a Madurese hilt which your piece is suppose to copy and expect that you can notice the difference in craftsmanship.
Regards
Attached Images
 
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 03:42 PM   #10
Greybeard
Member
 
Greybeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 124
Default

Hi Dan, I really appreciate you for giving those seemingly "unwanted" kerises a home. They certainly deserve it! My suggestion: Just clean the blade from any rust and -- if you can -- replace the hilt with a better Maduranese one (as suggested by Jean). And then enjoy and love this old piece! Regards, Heinz
Greybeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 04:12 PM   #11
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,411
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhmgb
Sorry, it is a "keeper" to me. I happen to like this keris for several reasons. This is a keris with it's own history and character that I can appreciate. Perhaps I am a home to unwanted kerises? If so, I am proud of that.
You don't need to say sorry, when you like it, keep it.

This keris was rehilted since the blade and sheath are old but the hilt is much more recent and really unskilled worked.

A second point: The keris itself coming from a high culture and need care. Repairing the broken wrongko, polishing the wood and the pendok and changing the hilt would be the minimum what i would do with this keris when I like it. I have collected several keris in Indonesia and ebay as well which has been in a pitiful state. The most of my keris are not worked from high skilled empus or pande but I have tried to bring them in a status which is worth to keep them for coming generations.

Look for example to this keris. I have bought it years ago for very low money in Indonesia. It was in a very similar state as your keris. The blade have had corrosion, the sheath was in a real poor condition and the hilt was a similar one you have at your keris. The blade was cleaned and have get a new stain, the sheath (the break repair was before) have get some care (the worm holes in the back was filled with wood filler and it has get a polish with some coats of shellack), the mendak and hilt was replaced by better ones. Now, also when it is not a keris of high level, it is one which have a cultural worth (IMHO).
When I have written before that your keris isn't a "keeper" it was based upon the fact that I have the opinion that you and nobody else will be able to bring the blade alive. And the blade is the heart of every keris.

And at last, I only can second the words from Rick, very wise words.

Sorry for the poor pictures, have taken them just in the moment to show you what I mean.

Regards,

Detlef
Attached Images
      
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 06:45 PM   #12
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Thumbs up

Thanks Detlef and all the others who have posted.

Here is the story. Early on, I bought this keris, and one other, that are in terrible shape - I paid practically nothing for them and they were local so there was no exorbitant shipping costs from Indonesia.

At this point, with my limited funds, I'd probably rather use the money to buy better examples of kerises, with knowledge I am gaining and guidance from folks who know what they are doing.

I can appreciate that the posters here are trying to protect the newbie and I welcome that.

Thanks again!

-------------

Detlef - thanks for the pictures - that is really a fine keris. My problem is that I don't even know where to buy parts. Some parts that I have seen are extremely expensive - and then shipping is ridiculous! Also, I am still a bit unsure about doing the cleaning and staining of a wilah.

Last edited by dbhmgb; 18th April 2012 at 07:00 PM.
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 07:02 PM   #13
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greybeard
Hi Dan, I really appreciate you for giving those seemingly "unwanted" kerises a home. They certainly deserve it! My suggestion: Just clean the blade from any rust and -- if you can -- replace the hilt with a better Maduranese one (as suggested by Jean). And then enjoy and love this old piece! Regards, Heinz
Thanks Heinz. To let you know, these picture are older and since I took them I cleaned the blade a bit with lime juice and then oiled it quite liberally.
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 07:16 PM   #14
Greybeard
Member
 
Greybeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 124
Default

Hi Dan, fine that you cleaned your blade from that rust; this was my most concern about your keris. Regarding the hilt, if you really like it just keep it, because you are the only one who needs to like it -- nobody else!
Greybeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 07:49 PM   #15
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greybeard
Hi Dan, fine that you cleaned your blade from that rust; this was my most concern about your keris. Regarding the hilt, if you really like it just keep it, because you are the only one who needs to like it -- nobody else!
Very true! I have no friends or family that care about my collection - their eyes glaze over if I mention "keris".

My grandson is still under one year old - I'm hoping to hook him when he gets older!
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 08:18 PM   #16
Greybeard
Member
 
Greybeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 124
Default

Dan, we are in the same situation. Nobody cares about my "great" keris collection except myself. And I'm an older man. I still hope that I can hook my son one day ...
Greybeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 09:33 PM   #17
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,411
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greybeard
Dan, we are in the same situation. Nobody cares about my "great" keris collection except myself. And I'm an older man. I still hope that I can hook my son one day ...
Oh, I think with this problem you both not alone!
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 09:37 PM   #18
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhmgb
Very true! I have no friends or family that care about my collection - their eyes glaze over if I mention "keris".
You too ?!?
Welcome to the boat .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 09:57 PM   #19
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

Blub....Blub..... Can i join this sailing party??
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2012, 10:29 PM   #20
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default

I guess that's why we end up here!
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 08:56 AM   #21
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

Staining this keris if done properly won't harm the blade. This keris would be certainly for me a keeper. I would clean it to bring back its well deserved glory.

You don't know where to buy parts? Try ebay and search worldwide. I just took a look and saw some nice madurese ukirans that would do justice to this old fellow. Yes, an ivory ukiran is expensive but a well carved wooden one would do the job.
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 01:29 PM   #22
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default

"I would clean it to bring back its well deserved glory."

Now, there is a phrase I can understand! I can now see the point, as long as it does no further damage.

Now this has triggered several newbie questions...

I am not sure of the difference between cleaning and staining, or how to stain.

Another question I've had is about the juice used in cleaning. For small jobs I just used a lime, but if you need a quantity of juice for soaking (lime, lemon, pineapple) what is used? Most quantities of juice that I can find are sweetened, is that acceptable?

Thanks!

Dan
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 01:31 PM   #23
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Hi Dan,
I can fully understand that you like the blade & sheath of your kris in their original condition because of their age and history, but no way for the hilt!
I attach a picture of a Madurese hilt which your piece is suppose to copy and expect that you can notice the difference in craftsmanship.
Regards
Jean,

Yes, I can see a HUGE difference! I was looking on-line. I see the Madurese hilts as very ornate. Is this the trait of the hilts from this locale?

Thanks!

EDIT: Madurese Hilt Thread - I found my answer!

Last edited by dbhmgb; 19th April 2012 at 02:12 PM.
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 03:23 PM   #24
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,411
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhmgb
I am not sure of the difference between cleaning and staining, or how to stain.

Another question I've had is about the juice used in cleaning. For small jobs I just used a lime, but if you need a quantity of juice for soaking (lime, lemon, pineapple) what is used? Most quantities of juice that I can find are sweetened, is that acceptable?

Thanks!

Dan
Search in the forum, there are threads where it is exactly explained how a blade will be stained. Indonesia: warangan.

I use for cleaning lemon acid which you can buy in the supermarked, need a little bit watching since it is aggressive. But this process is explained as well not so long ago. Take your time and read. I don't would use sweetened juice.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 03:25 PM   #25
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,411
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhmgb

EDIT: Madurese Hilt Thread - I found my answer!
This is only one form of Madurese hilts, there are a lot of others. But Madura hilts are normally masterpieces of carving.
Sajen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 04:05 PM   #26
Henk
Member
 
Henk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
Default

Cleaning of a blade can be done with a fresh lemon or lime. It takes some time. With a rusty blade i brush the blade with the fresh lemon or lime. Put the piece of lemon on the rusty spot and pack the whole thing in plastic and let it rest for some time. The unpack it and scrub again with the lemon until the rust is gone. Staining is done with warangan like Detlef said. Search for it on this forum.

The hilts you found are indeed a form of madura hilts.

This link shows other maduran ukirans.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=madura
Henk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 04:28 PM   #27
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Personally i use pineapple juice because it is less aggressive than lemon or lime acid. With this blade, less aggressive might be a good idea.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 04:56 PM   #28
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default

I figured it required warangan. Arsenic is something I have no access to, and using it is not something I would attempt.

I will attempt a soaking in pineapple juice as David suggests.

I really appreciate all the feedback, thank you all!
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 05:03 PM   #29
Greybeard
Member
 
Greybeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 124
Default

Hi Dan, I use to clean my blades with diluted vinegar -- not a traditional method, I know. But for me it works very fine for many years ...
Greybeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2012, 05:09 PM   #30
dbhmgb
Member
 
dbhmgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greybeard
Hi Dan, I use to clean my blades with diluted vinegar -- not a traditional method, I know. But for me it works very fine for many years ...
How much do you dilute it?
dbhmgb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.