Keris Kinatah on ´roids - impossible?

Jussi M. · 6th November 2012, 09:10 PM

Could such a thing had existed?

I´m not talking about abundance of kinatah but a keris made of the esteemed metal itself. Yes, it could not had been Wesi Aji but alike there are the dapurs that fall outside the perimeter of "normal" why would such a anomaly not had existed and if, we need pics, please

To get back formal again - I do ask in earnest: are there reasons why gold could not had been used for the purpose of creating ceremonial kerises back in the day, say around 1600-1700?

Thanks,

J.

David · 7th November 2012, 04:37 PM

I would imagine that if such a blade did exist we would know about it. I would seriously doubt that it would be held in secret somewhere in someones private collection. But if i were to take this inquiry seriously i would want to know why such a blade would be create in the first place and what possible ceremonial purpose such a blade would serve. Undoubtably Indonesian cultures value gold and did associate the metal at one time with royalty, but it is also clear that tosan aji (respected iron) was/is also held in great esteem. Decorating a keris with gold to add a level of status is one thing, but would a keris made entirely of gold that held none of the practical and magical qualities of iron/pamor and was therefore useless as a weapon make any kind of cultural sense?

Jussi M. · 7th November 2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

But if i were to take this inquiry seriously i would want to know why such a blade would be create in the first place and what possible ceremonial purpose such a blade would serve.

Hello David,

Yes, it was a serious question. I have better things to do with my spare time for enjoyment than writing questions I expect not to be answered to in a keris forum.

Kerises were made of multiple materials suitable for use as weapons, yes, however I suspect that in those higher up levels of the hierarchical structures of days past those that had the necessary means for funding such a keris (made of gold) had less usage for its actual physical (piercing) weapons attribute compared to those more in line within the lines of magical, ceremonial, symbolical what´ll have you, less mechanical.

If more Kinatah is seen as merrier would not the whole thing made of gold be, well, "more"? Keris had jumped from one material to another. Why would a third jump be off limits then? - This is what I am asking and if the answer is no as in no, keris could not had been made of gold I´d like to know why not. If the answer is because only **** had the **** attributes etc please just say so. - If I´d know the answer already I´d not use my time herein asking questions which answers I already know.

I´f my question(s) is out of whack just say so.

Thanks,

J.

David · 7th November 2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Yes, it was a serious question. I have better things to do with my spare time for enjoyment than writing questions I expect not to be answered to in a keris forum.

Jussi, i didn't ask you if you had intended this question to be a serious one. I merely stated the if I were to take the question serious, then ....
Your intentions were not being questioned.
That being understood, i think you have not quite understood what i have asked/written from there. Of course a keris could be made from solid gold. My question is, why would it be? Simply because gold is a precious and valued metal? You also seem to be assuming that gold was somehow considered more magical in the culture than iron and pamor. I have read nothing as of yet that leads me to believe this. I am also not convinced that simply because a blade is not intended to be used for physical piercing/cutting that such attributes of the blade become unimportant in a ceremonial context. The following passage from Weiner's Visible and Invisible Realms (pgs. 163-164) might be a good example, when the Dutch presented a gift of a dull sword to the Dewa Agung in Bali in 1840:
"Fondling the sword the Dewa Agung remarked that it was not sharp. Huskus Koopman promptly responded with an impromptu moral lesson on symbolic value: the sword was not sharp because European princes had no need to defend themselves, as they were loved and therefore protected by their subjects. (Balinese, of course, presumed rulers loved and protected their subjects with their weapons). Huskus Koopman explained, weapons only serve 'as a pomp'. His explanation was received by the Dewa Agung 'with an affable laugh of self-satisfaction' whereupon the audience was adjourned. Given the significance of regalia weapons in Bali, the Dewa Agung might well have been amused; if European notables really thought as Huskus Koopman did, they understood little about power. Moreover, for the Dewa Agung the sword might well have carried a rather different symbolic message. A blunt sword was hardly worth the dignity of the Dewa Agung's position."

Jussi M. · 7th November 2012, 07:09 PM

It seems me not being a native speaker of English got the best of me. Sorry. My fault. Misunderstood your initial reply. I guess I got the answer I was looking for - If gold did not have anything to go for it in comparison to iron/nickel in attributes that are valid from the perspective of keris other than sheer physical attributes in sheer mechanical sense I gather they were not made of it. I just played with the idea as it seems kinatah was used a lot as was gold for parts of the dress alike. But then again if a keris would had been made of gold it probably would not been a keris to beging with. Just a fancy object.

A. G. Maisey · 7th November 2012, 08:21 PM

I read this question of yours yesterday Jussi, and I gave it some thought.

There are a number of ways this question could be considered and a number of ways it could be answered. I feel you've raised a fairly complex subject here and if it is considered in depth, I doubt there is an easy answer.

You've specified the 17th century as the period that applies to your question, and in this period I would not hesitate say that an all gold keris would not be a possibility, however, the answer to each time and place could possibly vary.

The short answer is perhaps more or less as David has stated. Iron is very magical stuff to the pre-industrial mind, and the people who worked iron were wizards. No matter how beautiful and precious gold might be, it could never approach the mystical power of iron.

The symbolism attached to each of these metals is quite different.

Jean · 8th November 2012, 02:08 PM

Just a personal experience for sharing: More than 15 years ago I was visiting a good antique shop in Jakarta (yes, it did exist) and I came accross a Solonese kris with a solid suasa blade which looked original and old but unfortunately I did not buy it upon the recommendation from my wife. It was said to originate from one of the kratons but.... After the years I realize that the blade was may be made from gongso and not suasa.
So kris blades from other metals than steel may well have been used but from gold?
Best regards
Jean

David · 8th November 2012, 03:29 PM

I believe i do recall reading stories about keris made of metals other than iron to be used against specific people who had magically protected themselves against harm from iron objects. I think these keris were supposedly bronze. But it is always difficult to separate truth from legend with such stories. I believe we may have discussed such keris in this forum before.

Gustav · 8th November 2012, 04:26 PM

This is a quite good thread about metals used in keris different than iron:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html

A. G. Maisey · 8th November 2012, 08:13 PM

Bronze keris are known.

I have seen a photographed a bronze Keris Buda; I've read somewhere --- I had thought Quaritch Wales but I cannot find it in that --- that in Hindu blood sacrifice, bronze was preferred to iron, so this bronze KB was possibly a weapon used for sacrifice.

I also have a Modern Keris --- ie, current keris form --- in bronze.

I've never seen a true keris in any metal other than these two.

6th November 2012, 09:10 PM	#1
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Keris Kinatah on ´roids - impossible? Could such a thing had existed? I´m not talking about abundance of kinatah but a keris made of the esteemed metal itself. Yes, it could not had been Wesi Aji but alike there are the dapurs that fall outside the perimeter of "normal" why would such a anomaly not had existed and if, we need pics, please To get back formal again - I do ask in earnest: are there reasons why gold could not had been used for the purpose of creating ceremonial kerises back in the day, say around 1600-1700? Thanks, J.

7th November 2012, 04:37 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	I would imagine that if such a blade did exist we would know about it. I would seriously doubt that it would be held in secret somewhere in someones private collection. But if i were to take this inquiry seriously i would want to know why such a blade would be create in the first place and what possible ceremonial purpose such a blade would serve. Undoubtably Indonesian cultures value gold and did associate the metal at one time with royalty, but it is also clear that tosan aji (respected iron) was/is also held in great esteem. Decorating a keris with gold to add a level of status is one thing, but would a keris made entirely of gold that held none of the practical and magical qualities of iron/pamor and was therefore useless as a weapon make any kind of cultural sense?

7th November 2012, 07:09 PM	#5
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	It seems me not being a native speaker of English got the best of me. Sorry. My fault. Misunderstood your initial reply. I guess I got the answer I was looking for - If gold did not have anything to go for it in comparison to iron/nickel in attributes that are valid from the perspective of keris other than sheer physical attributes in sheer mechanical sense I gather they were not made of it. I just played with the idea as it seems kinatah was used a lot as was gold for parts of the dress alike. But then again if a keris would had been made of gold it probably would not been a keris to beging with. Just a fancy object.

7th November 2012, 08:21 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I read this question of yours yesterday Jussi, and I gave it some thought. There are a number of ways this question could be considered and a number of ways it could be answered. I feel you've raised a fairly complex subject here and if it is considered in depth, I doubt there is an easy answer. You've specified the 17th century as the period that applies to your question, and in this period I would not hesitate say that an all gold keris would not be a possibility, however, the answer to each time and place could possibly vary. The short answer is perhaps more or less as David has stated. Iron is very magical stuff to the pre-industrial mind, and the people who worked iron were wizards. No matter how beautiful and precious gold might be, it could never approach the mystical power of iron. The symbolism attached to each of these metals is quite different.

8th November 2012, 02:08 PM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Just a personal experience for sharing: More than 15 years ago I was visiting a good antique shop in Jakarta (yes, it did exist) and I came accross a Solonese kris with a solid suasa blade which looked original and old but unfortunately I did not buy it upon the recommendation from my wife. It was said to originate from one of the kratons but.... After the years I realize that the blade was may be made from gongso and not suasa. So kris blades from other metals than steel may well have been used but from gold? Best regards Jean

8th November 2012, 03:29 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	I believe i do recall reading stories about keris made of metals other than iron to be used against specific people who had magically protected themselves against harm from iron objects. I think these keris were supposedly bronze. But it is always difficult to separate truth from legend with such stories. I believe we may have discussed such keris in this forum before.

8th November 2012, 04:26 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	This is a quite good thread about metals used in keris different than iron: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html

8th November 2012, 08:13 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Bronze keris are known. I have seen a photographed a bronze Keris Buda; I've read somewhere --- I had thought Quaritch Wales but I cannot find it in that --- that in Hindu blood sacrifice, bronze was preferred to iron, so this bronze KB was possibly a weapon used for sacrifice. I also have a Modern Keris --- ie, current keris form --- in bronze. I've never seen a true keris in any metal other than these two.