Can anyone help research a soldier of the DCLI pre 1917?

Atlantia · 5th September 2011, 07:06 PM

I've been trying to research a soldier who left the DCLI in 1917.
I know the medal collectors and militaria peeps seem to manage it but I can't seem to find him.
I can't even seem to find his medal card in the national archives.

Problem is I only have a first initial.

Company Sergeant Major E.Osborne. 2-4 Battalion Duke Of Cornwalls Light Infantry. Left the battalion in 1917.

I have something that was presented to him when he left (not a weapon).

spiral · 7th September 2011, 10:08 AM

Intresting problem Gene, It may be possible that he went on to another Regiment & is listed under that Regiment. He may also have become an Officer or Reserve Officer in subsequant Regiment.

Have you tried the DCLI museam or Archivist? They might help?

Good luck!

Spiral

Atlantia · 7th September 2011, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Intresting problem Gene, It may be possible that he went on to another Regiment & is listed under that Regiment. He may also have become an Officer or Reserve Officer in subsequant Regiment.

Have you tried the DCLI museam or Archivist? They might help?

Good luck!

Spiral

Hi Jonathan

I have emailed the regimental museum (no answer yet). I can't seem to get anywhere on the national archives website. Even just entering 'osborne' and DCLI or duke of cornwalls light infantry with a date reange up to 1917 isn't bringing up any results. So either I'm doing something wrong (which is possible) or the record is gone?

A kind fellow collector (thank you Mark) has provided this information on a medal group, which he thinks is almost certainly the same chap:

"Warrant Officer E. Osborne, Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, Egypt, undated, one clasp, The Nile 1884-85 (Corp: 2/D of Corn: L.I.); I.G.S., 1854-95, one clasp, Burma 1889-92 (... E. Osborne 1st Bn D.C.L. Infy); British War Medal (W.O. Cl 2); Army Long Service and G.C., E.VII.R. (C. Sjt.); Khedive's Star, 1884-6, contact marks to first and second medals, others very fine and better (8)"

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=2945215

To be honest, military stuff (especially this late) is usually of no interest to me, so I have such little experience that I am unfamiliar with and have to decipher even the military abbreviations.
This caught my eye because of it's ethographic and quirky nature.

Hopefully it is the chap whose medals are recorded above and I'm just 'searching wrong' on the archives site?

BTW, here is what the item looks like. It seems like an affectionate and humerous item. I wonder if he was known as a bit of an elephant, and he liked tea?

Atlantia · 7th September 2011, 06:11 PM

Have just got this reply from the regimental museum:

"Sadly I can tell you nothing about Osborne himself as he was a Territorial Force soldier of a battalion for which we have few records. All I can do is to let you have a few details of the service of the 2/4 th Battalion Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry (Territorial Force) during the Great War.

Pre 1914 there were two DCLI Territorial battalions of the DCLI – the 4 th and 5 th DCLI. The former recruited in the west of the County (including Truro) and the latter in the east of the County. TF soldiers had no liability to serve outside the United Kingdom unless they had signed an agreement to do so. When war was declared on 4 th August 1914, all those who had signed such an agreement were formed into two battalions, regardless of whether they were originally from the 4 th or 5 th . These battalions were known as the 1/4 th and 2/4 th DCLI (TF). They were to be employed in India to relieve regular battalions for service on the Western Front.

The 1/4 th sailed for India on 4 th October 1914. After a tough period of training in India, it embarked for Aden on 22 nd January 1916. There it was involved in a desultory campaign against the Turks which gave these Territorial soldiers a taste of operational soldiering. In January 1917, the Battalion again moved – this time to Egypt, where it became part of General Allenby’s Egyptian Expeditionary Force which was about to set out on the campaign against the Turks in Palestine. This is now a little known chapter of the war, but one which tested the British and Colonial troops severely, fighting several major battles against a determined enemy in a mountainous, hostile environment. The campaign was an unqualified success, leading to the surrender of the Turkish army on 31 st October 1918.

The 2/4 th sailed for India on 12 th December 1914. It did not experience any of the excitements of its sister battalion, but remained in India till 1919, providing reinforcement drafts for units fighting in the Middle East theatres of war. Most of these drafts went to the 1/4 th to replace casualties, however, a significant number of 2/4 th men found themselves with units fighting in Gallipoli and Mesopotamia."

I have tried to find mention of CSM Osborne amongst the few 2/4 th records. Because this battalion never saw action it did not keep a War Diary; the Regimental Journal was not published during the war; and, surprisingly, we have no photographs. Messes appear to have been very generous in their appreciation of members who left after long service. It is impossible to say where CSM Osborne was posted, but it is not unlikely that he ended up with the 1/4 th in Palestine."

Best
Gene

kahnjar1 · 7th September 2011, 09:38 PM

Suggest you try War Graves/Commonwealth War Graves website. If no luck why not annoy the War Office?
Stu

spiral · 7th September 2011, 11:33 PM

your doing well so far Gene!

Nice teapot to, . Have you christend it yourself yet?

Lapsang, Darjeeling or Earl Grey?

Hes Definatly not amongst listed war dead, so either retired or transfered to another regiment.

The Offcial medal Records are not complete either, there normaly fairly good with Brit Regiments though. {Record of Colonial units records are fairly abismal} Perhaps Terrotorial records are also? Truly dont know. Built up my own data base of Gurkhas wherever possible over the years.

The 2/4th were based at Quetta & Dehra Dun in 1917, but where csm Osborne went after that is realy the questian.

Might be worth trying Truro libary reference section, sometimes one can find an eager hobyist researcher on the reference libary staff, who can do local press cuttings, council records,birth,deaths ,weddings & if lucky stories to...

Spiral

kahnjar1 · 8th September 2011, 12:12 AM

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchRes...x=25&send.y=10
Try this. there are 2 E Osbornes listed for the DCLI
Stu

spiral · 8th September 2011, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchRes...x=25&send.y=10
Try this. there are 2 E Osbornes listed for the DCLI
Stu

Stu, Thats not very realistic, there both privates in rank .

One of them was also killed in 1916, the teapots dated 1917.

As I said earlier he is not listed amongst the war dead.

Spiral

kahnjar1 · 8th September 2011, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Stu, Thats not very realistic, there both privates in rank .

One of them was also killed in 1916, the teapots dated 1917.

As I said earlier he is not listed amongst the war dead.

Spiral

................Can you be sure though that he was not demoted for some "unmilitary like" behavior? Anyway I do not intend to query your obviously sound info that he was not KIA. Just trying to help. Will butt out of this and leave it to the experts.

spiral · 8th September 2011, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

................Can you be sure though that he was not demoted for some "unmilitary like" behavior? Anyway I do not intend to query your obviously sound info that he was not KIA. Just trying to help. Will butt out of this and leave it to the experts.

no worrys Stu, Didnt mean to offend you,no expert myself just a student, but can see what the documents say & have read a few military records over the years.

To put a light hearted note on it, To be broken down to private from CSM {possibly with with over 30 year service} hed probably have to have taken advantage of the Generals wife over the bronze victory cannon canon in middle of the the parade ground on sunny Christmas morning in front of the assembled ranks , shouting "I do this for England, the King , God & St George" or some such, while waving the Regimental banner in the air, Before wounding half a dozen Regimental police in a life threatening way!

To be broken that far down youd be in jail for a few years first.

The records of British dead are more much more reliable the medal records by a long way. {Of course ther will be a very occasional accidental non recorded I am sure.]

Spiral

5th September 2011, 07:06 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Can anyone help research a soldier of the DCLI pre 1917? I've been trying to research a soldier who left the DCLI in 1917. I know the medal collectors and militaria peeps seem to manage it but I can't seem to find him. I can't even seem to find his medal card in the national archives. Problem is I only have a first initial. Company Sergeant Major E.Osborne. 2-4 Battalion Duke Of Cornwalls Light Infantry. Left the battalion in 1917. I have something that was presented to him when he left (not a weapon). Attached Images

7th September 2011, 10:08 AM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Intresting problem Gene, It may be possible that he went on to another Regiment & is listed under that Regiment. He may also have become an Officer or Reserve Officer in subsequant Regiment. Have you tried the DCLI museam or Archivist? They might help? Good luck! Spiral

7th September 2011, 06:11 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Have just got this reply from the regimental museum: "Sadly I can tell you nothing about Osborne himself as he was a Territorial Force soldier of a battalion for which we have few records. All I can do is to let you have a few details of the service of the 2/4 th Battalion Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry (Territorial Force) during the Great War. Pre 1914 there were two DCLI Territorial battalions of the DCLI – the 4 th and 5 th DCLI. The former recruited in the west of the County (including Truro) and the latter in the east of the County. TF soldiers had no liability to serve outside the United Kingdom unless they had signed an agreement to do so. When war was declared on 4 th August 1914, all those who had signed such an agreement were formed into two battalions, regardless of whether they were originally from the 4 th or 5 th . These battalions were known as the 1/4 th and 2/4 th DCLI (TF). They were to be employed in India to relieve regular battalions for service on the Western Front. The 1/4 th sailed for India on 4 th October 1914. After a tough period of training in India, it embarked for Aden on 22 nd January 1916. There it was involved in a desultory campaign against the Turks which gave these Territorial soldiers a taste of operational soldiering. In January 1917, the Battalion again moved – this time to Egypt, where it became part of General Allenby’s Egyptian Expeditionary Force which was about to set out on the campaign against the Turks in Palestine. This is now a little known chapter of the war, but one which tested the British and Colonial troops severely, fighting several major battles against a determined enemy in a mountainous, hostile environment. The campaign was an unqualified success, leading to the surrender of the Turkish army on 31 st October 1918. The 2/4 th sailed for India on 12 th December 1914. It did not experience any of the excitements of its sister battalion, but remained in India till 1919, providing reinforcement drafts for units fighting in the Middle East theatres of war. Most of these drafts went to the 1/4 th to replace casualties, however, a significant number of 2/4 th men found themselves with units fighting in Gallipoli and Mesopotamia." I have tried to find mention of CSM Osborne amongst the few 2/4 th records. Because this battalion never saw action it did not keep a War Diary; the Regimental Journal was not published during the war; and, surprisingly, we have no photographs. Messes appear to have been very generous in their appreciation of members who left after long service. It is impossible to say where CSM Osborne was posted, but it is not unlikely that he ended up with the 1/4 th in Palestine." Best Gene

7th September 2011, 09:38 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	Suggest you try War Graves/Commonwealth War Graves website. If no luck why not annoy the War Office? Stu

7th September 2011, 11:33 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	your doing well so far Gene! Nice teapot to, . Have you christend it yourself yet? Lapsang, Darjeeling or Earl Grey? Hes Definatly not amongst listed war dead, so either retired or transfered to another regiment. The Offcial medal Records are not complete either, there normaly fairly good with Brit Regiments though. {Record of Colonial units records are fairly abismal} Perhaps Terrotorial records are also? Truly dont know. Built up my own data base of Gurkhas wherever possible over the years. The 2/4th were based at Quetta & Dehra Dun in 1917, but where csm Osborne went after that is realy the questian. Might be worth trying Truro libary reference section, sometimes one can find an eager hobyist researcher on the reference libary staff, who can do local press cuttings, council records,birth,deaths ,weddings & if lucky stories to... Spiral

8th September 2011, 12:12 AM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchRes...x=25&send.y=10 Try this. there are 2 E Osbornes listed for the DCLI Stu