Arms and armor of a muslim bowyer!

Tane · 13th January 2007, 10:29 AM

Hi,
my name is Hakim and i' m a french (my origins are from Algeria) bowyer who wants to recreate the equipment of a muslim medieval bowyer (ottoman/indo persian) ; i'm looking for all pics which can help me : helmet, shield, chaimail, clothes. I can have a shield of 18" : is is too big ?
For instant, i have o real composite bow and a arrow quiver

Thanks for your help!
Tane

Tim Simmons · 13th January 2007, 05:52 PM

This looks like it was used from horse back? The English are famous for the use of the Long Bow up untill the 15th century. It is said that an English bowman captured in Scotland if his life was spared he had his thumbs cut off. The long bow being so specialised and heavy the strain deformed the bodies of those skilled in its use.

nKante · 13th January 2007, 07:29 PM

Beautiful quiver. I don't know how to link, but a site called Age of Chivalry has a nice description of Ghulam warriors. It sounds like a good place to start. Would love to see pics of everything all together.

S.Al-Anizi · 13th January 2007, 10:24 PM

Hi Tane,

Nice work you've got there! I think you should take a look at all the medieval manuscripts you could find, to accurately reproduce what you're after.

VANDOO · 13th January 2007, 10:46 PM

VERY NICE WORK AND WELCOME TO THE FORUM. I HAVE SEEN INFORMATION SOMEWHERE ON THIS BUT NO LONGER HAVE THE MEMORY TO REMEMBER WHERE. YOU MIGHT TRY A SEARCH OF THE FORUM ARCHIVES USING ARCHERY, BOW, ARROW OR OTHER RELATED WORDS. HERE IS A PICTURE OF A TURKISH GAURD WHICH WILL SHOW SOME OF THE DRESS AND WEAPONS . I HOPE IT COMES THRU. GOOD LUCK

Tane · 13th January 2007, 11:06 PM

Thank you very much for your help!
In fact, i have already search on the site, and i though you could have more pics specific to my purpose. I have the "palace guard" painting too and in deed, it's marvelous! Moreover, it's a by french painter

I'm very happy that you like my staff and with you, i hope continue!
Tane

Emanuel · 13th January 2007, 11:20 PM

Hello Tane, I recommend the book titled "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor" by George Cameron Stone. It has a large chapter on armour and bows, and includes a fair number of Ottoman and Persian examples.

The palace guard is an amazing picture! It's interesting to see how high the sash was worn and how high the yataghan, pistol and khanjar were carried. It almost looks awckward to reach and unsheath the yataghan.

Regards,
Emanuel

Tane · 13th January 2007, 11:38 PM

Je t'ai répondu Manolo!

I f you have some articles, you can send me at hakimberkat@hotmail.com
Thanks!
Tane

katana · 14th January 2007, 12:29 AM

Hi Tane ....very nice quiver. Your bow..is it a traditional composite (sinew backed, horn etc) or a modern equivalent ? Either way this type of bow is very powerful for their size.

The Romans adopted this design from the Huns after they found they were superior to their own.

Tane · 14th January 2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Tane ....very nice quiver. Your bow..is it a traditional composite (sinew backed, horn etc) or a modern equivalent ? Either way this type of bow is very powerful for their size.

The Romans adopted this design from the Huns after they found they were superior to their own.

Hi Katana,
it's a real composite bow which is very powerful and the size is 46".
Tane

katana · 14th January 2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tane

Hi Katana,
it's a real composite bow which is very powerful and the size is 46".
Tane

NICE....

I know there is a guy in Hungary who makes superb authentic bows .....using age old techniques and materials. Where did you get yours?

Tane · 14th January 2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

NICE....

I know there is a guy in Hungary who makes superb authentic bows .....using age old techniques and materials. Where did you get yours?

It's by a french bowyer who is professor with children ; he has a pedagogic project about archery and people who lived with bows. He makes composite bows, arrows and quiver with children. He is amazing! The mine is with sinew, snake Java skin and "teeth" of whale (!). and hickory.

Aqtai · 14th January 2007, 08:07 PM

If you are planning on doing a 15th-16th century Ottoman sipahi (armoured cavalry/horse-archer), check out these threads, you may find them helpful:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=71813
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=72695

BTW, that's nice stuff you've got there.

All the best.

Tim Simmons · 14th January 2007, 08:59 PM

While we are on the subject of archery. The English longbow was a devastating weapon in the hands of commoners bring down the elite on horse back therefore having tremendous impact on West European warfare in the middle ages. Well in England and France, Wales and Scotland anyway.

Zifir · 15th January 2007, 05:05 PM

You might wanna check this out:

http://www.kassai.at/
http://www.grozerarchery.com/

Tane · 16th January 2007, 03:21 PM

Thank you very much for your help!

wolviex · 17th January 2007, 12:05 PM

Hello!
Below you'll find just a few pictures from books I had just at the hand.
You should get few book like:

War and Peace. Ottoman-Polish Relations in the 15th-19th c. - great catalogue from exhibition in Istanbul and Warsaw 1999 vastly illustrated (in Polish version 'Wojna i Pokoj' from time to time available on ebay)

B&W picture is from the book by Zdzislaw Zygulski, Ottoman art in the service of the Empire, NY 1992 -there is a small chapter on arms too, but it isn't necessary.

I believe you already have Turkish Archery and the composite bow by Paul E. Klopsteg (1947) devoted just to this subject.

regards!

Tane · 17th January 2007, 04:38 PM

Really beautiful!!! Thanks a lot!

nKante · 17th January 2007, 09:52 PM

Could some of those quivers also carry the bow? The curving shapes suggest the potential. But in all the illustrations I've seen, the bow is in use. I have seen a few drawings that showed the archers with the bows slung over the shoulder. But this seems too dangerous of a way to transport a valuable instrument. On closer inspection... Are some quivers and others bow cases?

wolviex · 17th January 2007, 10:19 PM

Yes, of course there are bow cases:

wolviex · 17th January 2007, 10:21 PM

thought some people decided to choose other way of transporting bows

Here is a picture of azab - Turkish infantryman, picture by Nicolas de Nicolay from 1551 y.

CharlesS · 18th January 2007, 04:01 PM

Lovely pieces all around, but be wary of copying too much form the lovely portrait of the Guard by Deutsch. While it's a magnifcent piece, especially for us weapon lovers, it is admittedly 'fantasicized', with Deutsch overloading the subject with far more pieces than normal. He does this in several of his works as does Gerome. They both had magnificent weapons collections after travelling thru the Middle East and N. Africa, and this overload was a way of showing off the pieces they loved in their art. The poor guy would have done well to stand up, much less move with the load he is carrying!!

13th January 2007, 10:29 AM	#1
Tane Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7	Arms and armor of a muslim bowyer! Hi, my name is Hakim and i' m a french (my origins are from Algeria) bowyer who wants to recreate the equipment of a muslim medieval bowyer (ottoman/indo persian) ; i'm looking for all pics which can help me : helmet, shield, chaimail, clothes. I can have a shield of 18" : is is too big ? For instant, i have o real composite bow and a arrow quiver Thanks for your help! Tane

13th January 2007, 10:46 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	VERY NICE WORK AND WELCOME TO THE FORUM. I HAVE SEEN INFORMATION SOMEWHERE ON THIS BUT NO LONGER HAVE THE MEMORY TO REMEMBER WHERE. YOU MIGHT TRY A SEARCH OF THE FORUM ARCHIVES USING ARCHERY, BOW, ARROW OR OTHER RELATED WORDS. HERE IS A PICTURE OF A TURKISH GAURD WHICH WILL SHOW SOME OF THE DRESS AND WEAPONS . I HOPE IT COMES THRU. GOOD LUCK Attached Images

13th January 2007, 11:06 PM	#6
Tane Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7	muslim Thank you very much for your help! In fact, i have already search on the site, and i though you could have more pics specific to my purpose. I have the "palace guard" painting too and in deed, it's marvelous! Moreover, it's a by french painter I'm very happy that you like my staff and with you, i hope continue! Tane

17th January 2007, 12:05 PM	#17
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hello! Below you'll find just a few pictures from books I had just at the hand. You should get few book like: War and Peace. Ottoman-Polish Relations in the 15th-19th c. - great catalogue from exhibition in Istanbul and Warsaw 1999 vastly illustrated (in Polish version 'Wojna i Pokoj' from time to time available on ebay) B&W picture is from the book by Zdzislaw Zygulski, Ottoman art in the service of the Empire, NY 1992 -there is a small chapter on arms too, but it isn't necessary. I believe you already have Turkish Archery and the composite bow by Paul E. Klopsteg (1947) devoted just to this subject. regards! Attached Images

17th January 2007, 10:19 PM	#20
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Bow cases Yes, of course there are bow cases: Attached Images

13th January 2007, 05:52 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	This looks like it was used from horse back? The English are famous for the use of the Long Bow up untill the 15th century. It is said that an English bowman captured in Scotland if his life was spared he had his thumbs cut off. The long bow being so specialised and heavy the strain deformed the bodies of those skilled in its use.

13th January 2007, 07:29 PM	#3
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	Beautiful quiver. I don't know how to link, but a site called Age of Chivalry has a nice description of Ghulam warriors. It sounds like a good place to start. Would love to see pics of everything all together.

13th January 2007, 10:24 PM	#4
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Hi Tane, Nice work you've got there! I think you should take a look at all the medieval manuscripts you could find, to accurately reproduce what you're after.

13th January 2007, 11:20 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Tane, I recommend the book titled "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor" by George Cameron Stone. It has a large chapter on armour and bows, and includes a fair number of Ottoman and Persian examples. The palace guard is an amazing picture! It's interesting to see how high the sash was worn and how high the yataghan, pistol and khanjar were carried. It almost looks awckward to reach and unsheath the yataghan. Regards, Emanuel

13th January 2007, 11:38 PM	#8
Tane Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7	Je t'ai répondu Manolo! I f you have some articles, you can send me at hakimberkat@hotmail.com Thanks! Tane

14th January 2007, 12:29 AM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tane ....very nice quiver. Your bow..is it a traditional composite (sinew backed, horn etc) or a modern equivalent ? Either way this type of bow is very powerful for their size. The Romans adopted this design from the Huns after they found they were superior to their own.

14th January 2007, 08:07 PM	#13
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	If you are planning on doing a 15th-16th century Ottoman sipahi (armoured cavalry/horse-archer), check out these threads, you may find them helpful: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=71813 http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=72695 BTW, that's nice stuff you've got there. All the best.

14th January 2007, 08:59 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	While we are on the subject of archery. The English longbow was a devastating weapon in the hands of commoners bring down the elite on horse back therefore having tremendous impact on West European warfare in the middle ages. Well in England and France, Wales and Scotland anyway.

15th January 2007, 05:05 PM	#15
Zifir Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	You might wanna check this out: http://www.kassai.at/ http://www.grozerarchery.com/

16th January 2007, 03:21 PM	#16
Tane Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7	Thank you very much for your help!

17th January 2007, 04:38 PM	#18
Tane Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7	Really beautiful!!! Thanks a lot!

17th January 2007, 09:52 PM	#19
nKante Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 72	Could some of those quivers also carry the bow? The curving shapes suggest the potential. But in all the illustrations I've seen, the bow is in use. I have seen a few drawings that showed the archers with the bows slung over the shoulder. But this seems too dangerous of a way to transport a valuable instrument. On closer inspection... Are some quivers and others bow cases?

17th January 2007, 10:21 PM	#21
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	thought some people decided to choose other way of transporting bows Here is a picture of azab - Turkish infantryman, picture by Nicolas de Nicolay from 1551 y. Attached Images

18th January 2007, 04:01 PM	#22
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Lovely pieces all around, but be wary of copying too much form the lovely portrait of the Guard by Deutsch. While it's a magnifcent piece, especially for us weapon lovers, it is admittedly 'fantasicized', with Deutsch overloading the subject with far more pieces than normal. He does this in several of his works as does Gerome. They both had magnificent weapons collections after travelling thru the Middle East and N. Africa, and this overload was a way of showing off the pieces they loved in their art. The poor guy would have done well to stand up, much less move with the load he is carrying!!