non ethno sword

fernando · 17th January 2005, 07:58 PM

Hello gentlemen
Any member familiar to (so said ) british infantry hangers, of ( so said ) model 1742 ? Or some web page i can look at ?
Sorry to use this forum to track info on non ethno specimens, but this is the only site on weapons i am on line with, and i have recently bought one of these hangers, for an interesting price, i'd like to query about.
Thanks in advance.

Jim McDougall · 17th January 2005, 09:01 PM

Hi Fernando,
Its been a while, good to hear from you again!
The best resource on these weapons is probably "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by George Neumann (Stackpole, 1973) and this has been a standard reference for not only American but British, French and German weapons of 17th-18th centuries.
Several examples of these are discussed on p.65,and it is noted that these brass hilted hangers are often termed 'the pattern 1742' by collectors because they are visible in the Duke of Cumberland's "Representation of Clothing of His Majestys Forces", published that year. Neumann notes that several variations are known including many with blades from cutlers of latter 18th century, suggesting of course remounting or later manufacture of the form. There was actually not an official pattern 1742, and actually many of these were actually made in Germany for England, made similar to thier own infantry hangers (pointed out by Neumann p.65). He notes in caption that these heart shaped guard hangers date c.1725-1750. Some of these have the tightly woven wire wrap seen on smallswords (typically gone on most surviving examples), while some have accelerated spiral fluting in cast brass.
One example shown (fig.11.S) has marked German blade.

Examples of this heart shape guard with two side branches added have been labeled the pattern 1751, again from illustration of a grenadier of the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards, from paintings by David Morier, again, attributed to that year (see Neumann fig.12.S).

British regulations for swords did not officially begin until 1796, so these 'pattern assignments' are clearly collectors interpretations, as in the case of similar attributions to other British military swords of the 18th century.

If you would please post illustration OK?

While this is not officially 'ethnographic' it is certainly associated. The military swords of many of these countries often have played an important part in the development of ethnographic forms, even if only the use of the blades.

Thank you for posting this, and again, great to hear from you!!
Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 17th January 2005, 11:28 PM

Hi Jim
So glad to have your wellcoming expressed, and much obliged for your teachings on the hanger, from which i will try and insert here the pictures.
From the very little i knew until now, this seems to be a short specimen, only with a 22" blade. Also the thumb ring is not a much seen variety ?! I wonder whether this solution of the ring functions as a thumb protection or a grip holding support ...
There are markings on the guard reverse, but they are frankly fainted, as not well punctioned at origin.
As the blade had some pitting, the guard and grip were very dirty and the brass wiring was much fragilized ( flea market piece ) , i gave the all sword one of these non skilled cleanings that, together with the dirt, rubbed off the brass patina ... my ignorance.
Thanks again for the enthusiastic support

Jim McDougall · 18th January 2005, 02:46 AM

Now the thumbring really adds new dimension!! That was definitely not on British swords...but does appear on German hangers of the same period.
(Neumann p.76, 44.S). However, the German hanger illustrated has certain different characteristics such as a solid cast brass hilt with spiral fluting, the globular pommel is similar but the ferrule is different and the capstan is more flattened....also, the thumbring is integral to the guard.

Your example has more British characteristics especially the wire grip wrap, the capstan, but most distinctively interesting is that the thumbring seems added, although possibly contemporary to working life. It would seem that the thumbring was a feature used on latter 17th century Northern European swords, presumably for better control ( seen on Swedish cavalry swords c.1680, but the feature reached Austrian as well as German swords through the 18th c.). It is interesting to note that the characteristic heart shaped guard seems to have evolved to the British models from these European examples.

It should be noted that during the Revolutionary War, at least 30,000 German mercenaries came to America carrying what is described as a motley array of European weapons from late 17th to early 18th century, including the German thumbring hangers. While only hopeful speculation, especially as armourers were especially scarce in the colonies, the added thumbring could plausibly have been at request of owner.....but this would be most surprising as this feature was all but abandoned by this time of the 18th c.
Still a good chance that this was from other of the European countries with the thumbring mounted in this manner, lots of further checking to do to rule out the 'added on' idea.

Most interesting and attractive sabre though!! don't worry about the cleaning, it still looks great!! outstanding heavy blade, and I always liked the thumbrings (sort of a vestige of early chivalry).

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 18th January 2005, 04:07 PM

Swords like this were in use in most of north Europe, I think, at least in Denmark and probably in Norway and Sweden as well. See Danske Blankvaaben by Kay S.Nielsen, Forlaget Sixtus, 1978. ISBN 87-7348-021-5. Text in Danish with German sumary.

Jens

fernando · 24th February 2005, 08:51 PM

Amazing thing !
I have ordered " Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" from an U.S.A. site and what i received was "Colecctors Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" by G.C.Neumann and Frank J. Kravic. Page and image numbers do not coincide with Jim's quotations on the earlier Neumann's book, as this one probably with more material ( 286 pages size A4 ).
In any case, in this page 253, image 10 shows a specimen with the whole lay out in the same manner as my discussed hanger ... wired grip, pommel, capstan, guard, quilon ... although assumedly from a different provenance ... little diffirences in shape and dimension of details. Curiously the thumb ring is also an assembled one, looking to be just the same model, but mounted on the opposite side ... as such must have belonged to a left hander, which confirms Jim's aproach that this was an "optional" to be ordered.
I have meanhwile consulted some sites on Danish hangers, and currently i only find tracks on the version with the spiral brass grip and so. Such model has lasted over there for several decades, and a local (sub) version developed was the trimming of the heart shaped hilt, to make it slimmer for waist suspension ( sorry for bizarre lexicon ).
Kind regards

Jim McDougall · 26th February 2005, 12:42 AM

Hi Fernando,
Thank you so much for the update! It is much appreciated and thank you for providing support for my theory. It is always rewarding to see ones observations strengthened in plausibility

The book you obtained, I wonder if it may be a revised or updated version of the original by Neumann which I noted? Can you provide ISBN # and more on the title etc. ?
Again, very nice sword!
All the best,
Jim

fernando · 27th February 2005, 08:28 PM

Hi Jim
No problem.
ISBN 0-9605666-8-6
The title is indeed "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American revolution"..
The reknown collector George Neumann joined Frank Kravic, an archeologist specialized in the period and subject, and both registered this work's copyright in 1975.
A third name was envolved, illustrator George Woodbridge, as well as many museums.
This edition was published by Scurlock Publishing Company (Texas ) in 1997.
Anithing else, just tell.
Keep well
fernando

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2005, 08:47 PM

Hi Fernando,
Thank you so much! That is great, I'll have to look for this one, sounds pretty good.
All the best,
Jim

17th January 2005, 07:58 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	non ethno sword Hello gentlemen Any member familiar to (so said ) british infantry hangers, of ( so said ) model 1742 ? Or some web page i can look at ? Sorry to use this forum to track info on non ethno specimens, but this is the only site on weapons i am on line with, and i have recently bought one of these hangers, for an interesting price, i'd like to query about. Thanks in advance.

17th January 2005, 11:28 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Hi Jim So glad to have your wellcoming expressed, and much obliged for your teachings on the hanger, from which i will try and insert here the pictures. From the very little i knew until now, this seems to be a short specimen, only with a 22" blade. Also the thumb ring is not a much seen variety ?! I wonder whether this solution of the ring functions as a thumb protection or a grip holding support ... There are markings on the guard reverse, but they are frankly fainted, as not well punctioned at origin. As the blade had some pitting, the guard and grip were very dirty and the brass wiring was much fragilized ( flea market piece ) , i gave the all sword one of these non skilled cleanings that, together with the dirt, rubbed off the brass patina ... my ignorance. Thanks again for the enthusiastic support Attached Images

18th January 2005, 02:46 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Now the thumbring really adds new dimension!! That was definitely not on British swords...but does appear on German hangers of the same period. (Neumann p.76, 44.S). However, the German hanger illustrated has certain different characteristics such as a solid cast brass hilt with spiral fluting, the globular pommel is similar but the ferrule is different and the capstan is more flattened....also, the thumbring is integral to the guard. Your example has more British characteristics especially the wire grip wrap, the capstan, but most distinctively interesting is that the thumbring seems added, although possibly contemporary to working life. It would seem that the thumbring was a feature used on latter 17th century Northern European swords, presumably for better control ( seen on Swedish cavalry swords c.1680, but the feature reached Austrian as well as German swords through the 18th c.). It is interesting to note that the characteristic heart shaped guard seems to have evolved to the British models from these European examples. It should be noted that during the Revolutionary War, at least 30,000 German mercenaries came to America carrying what is described as a motley array of European weapons from late 17th to early 18th century, including the German thumbring hangers. While only hopeful speculation, especially as armourers were especially scarce in the colonies, the added thumbring could plausibly have been at request of owner.....but this would be most surprising as this feature was all but abandoned by this time of the 18th c. Still a good chance that this was from other of the European countries with the thumbring mounted in this manner, lots of further checking to do to rule out the 'added on' idea. Most interesting and attractive sabre though!! don't worry about the cleaning, it still looks great!! outstanding heavy blade, and I always liked the thumbrings (sort of a vestige of early chivalry). All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 18th January 2005 at 03:15 AM.

17th January 2005, 09:01 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Fernando, Its been a while, good to hear from you again! The best resource on these weapons is probably "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by George Neumann (Stackpole, 1973) and this has been a standard reference for not only American but British, French and German weapons of 17th-18th centuries. Several examples of these are discussed on p.65,and it is noted that these brass hilted hangers are often termed 'the pattern 1742' by collectors because they are visible in the Duke of Cumberland's "Representation of Clothing of His Majestys Forces", published that year. Neumann notes that several variations are known including many with blades from cutlers of latter 18th century, suggesting of course remounting or later manufacture of the form. There was actually not an official pattern 1742, and actually many of these were actually made in Germany for England, made similar to thier own infantry hangers (pointed out by Neumann p.65). He notes in caption that these heart shaped guard hangers date c.1725-1750. Some of these have the tightly woven wire wrap seen on smallswords (typically gone on most surviving examples), while some have accelerated spiral fluting in cast brass. One example shown (fig.11.S) has marked German blade. Examples of this heart shape guard with two side branches added have been labeled the pattern 1751, again from illustration of a grenadier of the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards, from paintings by David Morier, again, attributed to that year (see Neumann fig.12.S). British regulations for swords did not officially begin until 1796, so these 'pattern assignments' are clearly collectors interpretations, as in the case of similar attributions to other British military swords of the 18th century. If you would please post illustration OK? While this is not officially 'ethnographic' it is certainly associated. The military swords of many of these countries often have played an important part in the development of ethnographic forms, even if only the use of the blades. Thank you for posting this, and again, great to hear from you!! Best regards, Jim

18th January 2005, 04:07 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Swords like this were in use in most of north Europe, I think, at least in Denmark and probably in Norway and Sweden as well. See Danske Blankvaaben by Kay S.Nielsen, Forlaget Sixtus, 1978. ISBN 87-7348-021-5. Text in Danish with German sumary. Jens

24th February 2005, 08:51 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Amazing thing ! I have ordered " Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" from an U.S.A. site and what i received was "Colecctors Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" by G.C.Neumann and Frank J. Kravic. Page and image numbers do not coincide with Jim's quotations on the earlier Neumann's book, as this one probably with more material ( 286 pages size A4 ). In any case, in this page 253, image 10 shows a specimen with the whole lay out in the same manner as my discussed hanger ... wired grip, pommel, capstan, guard, quilon ... although assumedly from a different provenance ... little diffirences in shape and dimension of details. Curiously the thumb ring is also an assembled one, looking to be just the same model, but mounted on the opposite side ... as such must have belonged to a left hander, which confirms Jim's aproach that this was an "optional" to be ordered. I have meanhwile consulted some sites on Danish hangers, and currently i only find tracks on the version with the spiral brass grip and so. Such model has lasted over there for several decades, and a local (sub) version developed was the trimming of the heart shaped hilt, to make it slimmer for waist suspension ( sorry for bizarre lexicon ). Kind regards

26th February 2005, 12:42 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Fernando, Thank you so much for the update! It is much appreciated and thank you for providing support for my theory. It is always rewarding to see ones observations strengthened in plausibility The book you obtained, I wonder if it may be a revised or updated version of the original by Neumann which I noted? Can you provide ISBN # and more on the title etc. ? Again, very nice sword! All the best, Jim

27th February 2005, 08:28 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Hi Jim No problem. ISBN 0-9605666-8-6 The title is indeed "Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American revolution".. The reknown collector George Neumann joined Frank Kravic, an archeologist specialized in the period and subject, and both registered this work's copyright in 1975. A third name was envolved, illustrator George Woodbridge, as well as many museums. This edition was published by Scurlock Publishing Company (Texas ) in 1997. Anithing else, just tell. Keep well fernando

27th February 2005, 08:47 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Fernando, Thank you so much! That is great, I'll have to look for this one, sounds pretty good. All the best, Jim