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Old 15th August 2017, 01:27 PM   #31
A. G. Maisey
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That would be good Kai.
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Old 15th August 2017, 01:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
.... interesting and with 3 examples we have established an pattern....


Thank you Kai for posting the three examples side by side!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I'm not convinced that Jean's pendok has any relationship with these 3 discussed here. (Thanks for adding the pic!)


Agree with you, certainly no relationship with the three other examples.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 15th August 2017, 01:52 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I guess we all agree that these 2 hilts are of the same style.

Still, I'd be very cautious of any claims like same maker/workshop/school - successful designs tend to get copied very quickly!

My best guess would be that this non-traditional hilt reflects the European influence during the first half of the 20th century (up to Indonesian independence) in Bali (or, possibly less likely, Lombok). I can't rule out a Madurese origin nor Kota Gede work though.



Agree in all points with you!
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Old 15th August 2017, 01:56 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
My question is this:-

were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?


Hello Alan,

Kai has already said what I can say but like Kai I will try to get further informations.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 15th August 2017, 10:38 PM   #35
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Thank you Detlef.
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Old 15th August 2017, 11:11 PM   #36
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As I said earlier, I find the hilt absolutely fascinating but... so much similar to the style of the famous Milanese armourer Filippo Negroli.

Besides, I find strange I haven't seen any hilt in this style anywhere in Indonesia (and I have visited quite a few museums and collections there) and then, they suddenly pop up in European collections.

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop?

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 15th August 2017 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 16th August 2017, 01:42 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
As I said earlier, I find the hilt absolutely fascinating but... so much similar to the style of the famous Milanese armourer Filippo Negroli.

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop?


Hello Marius,

thank you for your comment. All I can say is that despite its shape, the hilt is very ergonomic, which is typical for Indonesia.

The only thing on the hilt which is traditional are the decorations on the base of the hilt. If the hilt would be from Europe, it normallly got a stamp and or signature. So I think the complete Keris has been made in Indonesia.

The silver-work on the scabbard is of very high quality but compared to the scabbard in the added picture it is just average.

If you think, you have a top grade item, there is always a better one .


Best wishes,
Roland

p.s. please dont tell anyone from this picture, it is top secret
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Old 17th August 2017, 07:16 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Hello Marius,

All I can say is that despite its shape, the hilt is very ergonomic, which is typical for Indonesia.

The only thing on the hilt which is traditional are the decorations on the base of the hilt. If the hilt would be from Europe, it normallly got a stamp and or signature. So I think the complete Keris has been made in Indonesia.


Hello Roland,

I am not so sure ergonomics can be seen as a criteria specific to Indonesia. I have seen European silver handles for walking sticks that are quite ergonomic and some were unmarked.

Anyhow, it certainly is the work of a very skilled silversmith.

Regards,

Marius
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Old 17th August 2017, 07:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop?

Well. personally i have little doubt this silverwork is Balinese. The questions for me are more about timeframe than location. Balinese silversmiths are renown for their skills. They are also quite good at picking up and mimicking the styles. While i do see what you see that seems to show a European influence i would think that just "influence" is as far as that goes.
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Old 18th August 2017, 08:26 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Well, i don't think there is any question that this blade has some age.


Hello David,

Well, the blade certainly has "some" age but in my opinion it is less than 20, most likely less than 10 years old.

The pamor is crisp and clear and all the fine details of the carvings are equally crisp and clear.

From all what I know, even a blade kept in ideal conditions, in time will show less contrast of the pamor.

Moreover, the style/theme of decoration is almost identical to the style/theme I saw in several new kerises I have seen in the market in Solo. The pamor also seems the average pamor one can see on many new kerises.

Last but not least, the quality and detail of the engraving doesn't appear to be neither very elaborate, nor very well executed. To me, it looks by no means better than the average kerises I have seen in the market in Solo or at the dealer in Jogja.

All these make me be pretty sure it is a recently made, Javanese blade. But I have very little experience with kerises and I base my judgement mostly on comparisons with the kerises I saw during my recent trip to Indonesia and the few that passed through my hands.

So, if I am wrong in my assertion, I would appreciate if you or anybody on this forum can help and educate me as to what makes the blade of this keris Balinese, older than 10 years or otherwise very special?!

Regards,

Marius

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 18th August 2017 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 18th August 2017, 08:55 PM   #41
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Hello Marius,

only one short question: Would you expect to see Ganesha (a hindu god) in this execusion on a blade fom a islamic region?

I've seen and handled keris blades in nearly mint condition which has been verifiable more as hundred years old.

Best regards,
Detlef

Last edited by Sajen : 18th August 2017 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 18th August 2017, 09:20 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Marius,

only one short question: Would you expect to see Ganesha (a hindu god) in this execusion on a blade fom a islamic region?

I've seen and handled keris blades in nearly mint condition which has been verifiable more as hundred years old.

Best regards,
Detlef


Hello Detlef,

Not only that I would expect to see Ganesha, but I have actually seen several new Javanese keris blades with Ganesha and some with Garuda. They were also carved in gold-work very similar to the one of this blade. I suppose they were made for the tourist market.

I have seen the respective blades in the market in Solo and at a dealer in Jogja, and I am pretty sure they were locally made and not "imported" from Bali.

Just have a look at the link below and see a perfect example of a very un-Islamic Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga Javanese keris that is in my possesion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Also see photos of another un-Islamic antropomorphic Javanese keris and of an un-Islamic Madurese Garuda Keris (that both were in my posession).

Last but not least, I am attaching a photo from the book "The Javanese Kris" by Isaac Groneman, that also illustrates a Ganesha example.



PS: I have more examples but they are currently on sale.
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Last edited by mariusgmioc : 19th August 2017 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 28th August 2017, 07:35 PM   #43
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Default what are these traces?

Hello,

Having a further look at the blade of this keris, I have seen some strange traces (see red arrows).

Could it be that the Ganesha was welded to the blade?
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Old 28th August 2017, 07:56 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Hello,

Having a further look at the blade of this keris, I have seen some strange traces (see red arrows).

Could it be that the Ganesha was welded to the blade?


Hello Marius,

what you see there is corrosion, when I remember correct was there more corrosion which Roland has removed.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 28th August 2017, 08:28 PM   #45
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Here is a keris from my collection where the singha is a later addition. Sorry for the bad picture, it's just taken and the sun is gone already, so taken with flash, but I think it's to seen.
The keris from Roland is clealy worked like this originally.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 28th August 2017, 08:49 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Just have a look at the link below and see a perfect example of a very un-Islamic Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga Javanese keris that is in my possesion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200


Hello Marius,

the "keris" in this thread has nothing to do with traditional traditinal keris culture, I wouldn't be surprised when it would have been added Homer from the Simpsons!

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 28th August 2017, 09:26 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Marius,

the "keris" in this thread has nothing to do with traditional traditinal keris culture, I wouldn't be surprised when it would have been added Homer from the Simpsons!

Regards,
Detlef



http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.
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Old 28th August 2017, 09:48 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.


But two very different animals, one is an antique keris (page 218/19), the other one is modern art.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 28th August 2017, 10:51 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

Marius, your keris that you have linked to may well have been made in Jawa, but it was not made for a Javanese audience. It is a nicely crafted art piece probably aimed at a Western consumer like yourself. It bares very little resemblance to the examples shown in the Groneman book and serves a completely different intent and purpose.
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Old 28th August 2017, 11:07 PM   #50
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Marius' keris belongs to the Kamardikan school, and very clearly displays its Sumenep/Aeng Tong-Tong heritage.

Contrary to the belief of many collectors who live in the World Outside Jawa, this type of keris is not produced specifically with those collectors in mind.

In Indonesia itself, this type of work is regarded as art, and regularly makes its appearance at the various keris exhibitions that are held in Indonesia.

Some collectors of keris and art in Indonesia will collect only keris from the Kamardikan classification. It is a pretty solid market.

The influence of collectors in the World Outside Jawa is not material in its impact on this market, of far greater importance is the local market in Indonesia itself. It is this local market that is targeted by the artists who produce Kamardikan keris, not the minuscule market in the outside world.
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Old 28th August 2017, 11:44 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Marius' keris belongs to the Kamardikan school, and very clearly displays its Sumenep/Aeng Tong-Tong heritage.

Contrary to the belief of many collectors who live in the World Outside Jawa, this type of keris is not produced specifically with those collectors in mind.

In Indonesia itself, this type of work is regarded as art, and regularly makes its appearance at the various keris exhibitions that are held in Indonesia.

Some collectors of keris and art in Indonesia will collect only keris from the Kamardikan classification. It is a pretty solid market.

The influence of collectors in the World Outside Jawa is not material in its impact on this market, of far greater importance is the local market in Indonesia itself. It is this local market that is targeted by the artists who produce Kamardikan keris, not the minuscule market in the outside world.

Thanks for your input on this Alan. I am aware of all that you say, but my logic was that collectors within the Indonesian market would be more interested in Kamardikan keris that kept within the "lexicon" of accepted Indonesian iconography. Since this keris steps well outside that with its depiction of winged dragons and elephant-headed serpents i assumed it was intended for a different market of collectors.
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Old 29th August 2017, 12:24 AM   #52
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David, the local market in Indonesia is very, very big, and pretty enthusiastic. The people in that market have areas of interest that cover all aspects. The type of keris such as Marius has fits into one niche of that market.

Going back into the early 1980's there was a keris exhibition held in Solo by the ASKI boys, and some of those makers exhibited work that explored the idea of the keris as a canvas for art, some of that art was decidedly outside the keris tradition. Some people were highly critical of it:-

"yes, its art, but is it a keris!!???"

Other people were very impressed by that work, and bought it.

In fact, going back into the 19th century old keris were being used as the canvas for art work.

Some Indonesian collectors like this sort of work, others detest it.The distinction is probably pretty much similar to art lovers in the Western World who like modern art, and those who are hardcore traditionalists.

My personal attitude is that in a comprehensive keris collection we should not discriminate against any particular type of keris. But the key word here is "comprehensive", and not all collections are comprehensive, some people prefer to target a particular class of keris.

As for the lexicon of local iconography, in my experience very, very few people in Indonesia who are involved with the keris have much understanding of this at all.

The dominant culture in Indonesia is Javanese culture. This has always been true and is true now. There is a core of Javanese values, but the peripherals change constantly and always have. Jawa accepts and adapts everything that comes into the society.
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Old 29th August 2017, 09:43 AM   #53
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Thank you gentlemen for your input, and I am happy I learned new things about my Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga would be keris.

However, I provided the link to that older thread just to provide a fairly recent example in response to Detlef's question as to whether I am expecting to see a Hindu Ganesha keris made in Muslim Java. And the answer is clearly and unambiguously YES. I have seen not one but a few clearly (in my maybe poor judgement) Javanese recently made kerises with Ganesha and Garuda (both Hindu).

So I reiterate my original question:

why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?

And what makes this blade older than say 10 years or so?!

Regards,

Marius

PS: As opposed to Roland's oppinion that his keris has a smooth/shiny surface, all I can see from the photos is a rather rough surface typical for Javanese blades. Of course I might be wrong as photos may be deceiving but that's what I see.

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Old 29th August 2017, 03:32 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?

And what makes this blade older than say 10 years or so?!

Regards,

Marius

PS: As opposed to Roland's oppinion that his keris has a smooth/shiny surface, all I can see from the photos is a rather rough surface typical for Javanese blades. Of course I might be wrong as photos may be deceiving but that's what I see.


"why is Roland's keris Balinese and not Javanese as I suspect?"

One reason is the description of the Hollenstedt-exhibition, which shows similar examples. Another is the smooth blade. I can make one or two pictures, to demonstrate clearly, that the surface is very smooth, almost mirror finished.

In my opinion it would be impossible to weld a figure onto a Pamor-blade without destryoing the Pamor. Welding two pieces of steel together, requires a temperature bewteen 1200 and 1300C. On a finished blade, this will have massive effects. Directly around the figure the pamor is undisturbed.

The overall condition of the blade is just too bad for a 10 year old blade without the tiniest signs of artifical aging.


Regards,
Roland
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Old 29th August 2017, 04:35 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
However, I provided the link to that older thread just to provide a fairly recent example in response to Detlef's question as to whether I am expecting to see a Hindu Ganesha keris made in Muslim Java.


Hello Marius,

this I haven't asked you. I've asked "in this execusion"! Java was in great parts before it get islamicized Hindu, so it's clear that you can see still Ganesha. Garuda is the heraldic symbol of Indonesia so also not a great surprise to see it also in the Muslim areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
And the answer is clearly and unambiguously YES. I have seen not one but a few clearly (in my maybe poor judgement) Javanese recently made kerises with Ganesha and Garuda (both Hindu).


You give the answer byself, the ones you speak about are fairly recent and they will have a very different execusion. And the one antique keris with Ganesha or better elephant you have shown is very different.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 29th August 2017, 09:17 PM   #56
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Roland, it has been a fairly common practice for a very long time to add a figure at the gandhik of a keris, after that keris has been in use for an even longer time.

Incidentally, sometimes the addition of such a figure could be 100% legitimate. not some attempt to create a forgery in order to raise market value, in these cases the legitimacy related to a change in status or talismanic enhancement.

The way it is done is to weld a piece of pamor material onto the gandhik area of the keris, in older keris, this piece of material is sometimes taken from the front part of the blade. When the weld has been completed, the added piece of pamor is carved and the blade is refinished.

If the joint between the added piece of pamor and the blade is too obvious, the added figure is often covered with kinatah work. Sometimes we can detect and added piece of material because the grain runs in a different direction from the grain in the rest of the blade. However, this is never a certain tell that the material was added after the blade was already old, because sometimes there would be insufficient material at the gandhik prior to the blade being made from the original forging, so the smith would add a bit of extra material here before he began the cold work.

It is not particularly difficult to control weld heat to add a small piece of material to a blade. I have done it with both plain mechanical damascus and nickel damascus, and I was never even close in skill to the Javanese smiths of long ago.
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Old 30th August 2017, 11:52 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Roland, it has been a fairly common practice for a very long time to add a figure at the gandhik of a keris, after that keris has been in use for an even longer time.


Thank you for your illustrative explanation, as always impressive illuminating for me.

So if the Ganesha was added later to the blade, it was done in a very skillfull way.

Roland
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