19th Century German hunting Sword

neekee · 8th December 2013, 11:52 PM

Hello, all ~

I'm new here, so I'll shortly introduce myself. I'm from France, and love history, and have been fascinated by the Medieval period eversince I was a kid. I am by no mean an expert in anything, but take interest in all kind of topics, ranging from weaponry to coins or ancient tools, for example.

I only discovered this forum recently and have been amazed by the quality of the posts and information being shared here. It's still to this day not so easy to find valuable information about early Medieval to early Renaissance weaponry, and I have been reading topics on this forum with great surprise and interest for a week now.

My financial state forbids me to collect original weapons from these times, but I do have a few things that were passed to me from my family that i can share if you're interested. Nothing too fancy though, I'm afraid.

I did want to ask you guys about this blade because it's the only one that still partly holds some mystery to me. I've seen it around my grand parents' house since childhood and always thought it was only some 20th century decoration item, but noticed it was actually a quite proper weapon when I started actually researching those things some years ago.

It was identified before as a "19th century German hunting sword", but no one so far could identify the marking on it.

I wanted to ask you guys if you could validate or not this identification, and even better, if you could find the blacksmith to whom belonged this marking.

Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the shared knowledge !

blade width: ~55cm
handle width: ~13cm

kronckew · 9th December 2013, 09:25 AM

can you post photos of the whole sword (with but out of scabbard if it has one)?

neekee · 9th December 2013, 09:31 AM

Sorry there was a problem with attachments but i couldn't see it since my posts still are being validated by moderators. Edited now. ^^

kronckew · 9th December 2013, 03:56 PM

any other markings on the blade? looks like something about 1/4 the way down from the grip.

a quick search did not reveal anything on that sun marking near the hilt. i'm sure our other experts have much better reference materials tho.

many swords had blades made in solingen, and were hilted in other countries, such as france. curved hunting sabres/hangers were not the norm. looks a bit too simple for french tho

y'all liked them ornate back then.

i'm sure a ship's officer would have liked to carry a handy weapon like that tho. my initial impression was 18c but it's not really an area i'm very knowledgeable in.

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2013, 05:28 AM

Neekee welcome to the forum!! and thank you for sharing this very nice hanger which while of the general form of European hunting swords would be hard to classify as 'German'. I would presume this more likely 18th century as Kronckew has noted, and as he also has suggested, there does seem to be some kind of configuration further down the blade.

The deep circular stamp near the forte seems possibly to be a rather stylized version of what is often termed loosely the 'Dutch star' ("Blanke Wapens", Puype, p.50) which commonly occurred on Dutch blades. According to notes from Fernando taken from a Dutch curator, these radiating figures similar to a sunburst or sunflower were a kind of paternoster. As often the case, these kinds of marks are not attributed to a particular maker, but favored by certain groups or regions in varying periods and applied in rather a talismanic sense. Other dialogue has suggested these often deep set devices seem to have ceased use about middle of 18th c.

While Solingen indeed provided many blades to European markets, a number of smiths emigrated to Netherlands where they continued production.

These hangers were favored by gentry and nobility as riding swords and were favored as well by officers, often naval as Kronkew notes. These swords were also often considered dress or even court swords.The stylized nature of the stamp suggests this blade may be later in 18th century, and the form was in use into the 19th, but this example seems probably Dutch mid to later 18th century.

neekee · 10th December 2013, 07:10 PM

Thanks a lot for the insightful comments guys. I closely examined the blade again but couldn't find any other markings. The "sun" marking is on both side of the blades though, and I will provide new detailed shots with this post.

Thanks again !

kronckew · 11th December 2013, 05:05 AM

interesting tip. the dutch seem to like the clipped point on their sabres & klewangs.

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2013, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

interesting tip. the dutch seem to like the clipped point on their sabres & klewangs.

Q.E.D.

M ELEY · 12th December 2013, 02:09 AM

Gorgeous piece! A fine hanger, as used by both hunting gentry, infantry and naval officers of the period. I'd add that it probably is earlier- ca. 1700-30, based on flat cap pommel, shell guard (in vogue from 1700 on, earlier types jutted straight out from piece) and knuckle bow with ball decoration mid-curve (fell out of favor after 1730's). Thus, a hanger we can date more concisely than most. A hanger I'd be proud to own! No, I mean it! If you ever decide to sell...

neekee · 12th December 2013, 12:07 PM

ahaha, sorry M ELEY, it's a family gift ^^

Thanks for the additional info though. So, so far, we've got:

. marking suggests a Dutch blade.
. classified as "hanger" (this word doesn't exist in French apparently), so not necessarily used for hunting
. early to late 18th century, which is awesome news to me ^^

I sure wish my great uncle was still around so I could ask him where it came from. This makes me really curious to know if it actually came down the family line or he purchased it himself.

Thanks a lot again to all of you

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th December 2013, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neekee

ahaha, sorry M ELEY, it's a family gift ^^

Thanks for the additional info though. So, so far, we've got:

. marking suggests a Dutch blade.
. classified as "hanger" (this word doesn't exist in French apparently), so not necessarily used for hunting
. early to late 18th century, which is awesome news to me ^^

I sure wish my great uncle was still around so I could ask him where it came from. This makes me really curious to know if it actually came down the family line or he purchased it himself.

Thanks a lot again to all of you

Salaams neekee ~ Welcome to the Forum. Please show the other mark half way down the blade which could imply a Far Eastern inscription, Hindu or Arabic? Unlike Jim I haven't spent too long researching this style thus it was good to see his detailed report superbly placing your sword.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

neekee · 12th December 2013, 08:51 PM

Hi Ibrahiim !

Sorry but like I said there aren't any noticeable markings on the blade. I'll try to take better pictures for you in plain daylight tomorrow.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2013, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams neekee ~ Welcome to the Forum. Please show the other mark half way down the blade which could imply a Far Eastern inscription, Hindu or Arabic? Unlike Jim I haven't spent too long researching this style thus it was good to see his detailed report superbly placing your sword.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for the kind nod

Indeed my efforts going through these maddening heaps of notes was to try to respond to the query on identification and the marking in particular. Actually I was hoping there would be more attention to the marking and for possibly further input to discuss it.
Like you, I thought I could see some form of marking or anomalous configuration at mid point of blade where engraved devices, cyphers or other decoration often occur on these blades.

The term hanger is loosely used for short bladed swords whether military or civilian, having developed it seems around the late 17th early 18th c. from I believe an Ottoman word. In France the term used for these short blade swords for hunting was couteau du chasse (I am no linguist especially with French!) but if I understand correctly the etymology of the word cutlass derived from couteau. Naturally I would appreciate any better informed explanation of these terms....we're here learn

fernando · 13th December 2013, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In France the term used for these short blade swords for hunting was couteau du chasse (I am no linguist especially with French!) but if I understand correctly the etymology of the word cutlass derived from couteau. Naturally I would appreciate any better informed explanation of these terms....we're here learn

Coteau de chasse translates to hunting knife (not sword). Coteau is the most basic term for knife you can imagine ... notwithstanding being the root for other derivations.

My response:

Thanks Nando! Like with most etymology in varying languages, it seems that terms used somewhat indiscriminately for knife/sword seem more focused on its use (cutting) than on its form. Most references I have seen on hunting swords use the couteau du chasse (Nuemann for example) while others often favor the German 'hirschfanger' for hunting swords. The term hanger seems to become even broader referring to military use of these shorter swords as officers often carried their own personal hunting/court type weapons. As swords of this shorter nature often carried by other ranks were comparable in size I suppose the term became associated further ?

neekee · 13th December 2013, 07:05 PM

Couteau, from Old French coutel, from Latin cultellus a little knife.

Couteau really means "knife" in French, not sword or saber. Sword could be "épée", saber would be "sabre". Although it's always hard to know what the old use for these words used to be.

I couldn't find an equivalent to the English term "hanger". The wikipedia page links to the French "sabre d'abordage" page, which would be a boarding sword.

The collector who identified this sword as a "19th century german hunting sword" called it "dague" (dagger) and "couteau" -de chasse in the same email ...

I didn't have time to take a picture of the blade today, but I can assure you again there are sadly no other markings.

Thanks to all for your interest !

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2013, 02:20 PM

Fernando and Neekee thanks so much for the interesting data on the etymology. In the study of arms there has always been such confusion and misnomer and in learning about them sometimes the terms by which they are called are often as the history of the arms themselves. It does sometimes present problems though in researching development of certain forms from contemporary narratives etc. as all you have is a verbal description without visual assistance, and a misplaced term sends you down an entirely different path.

neekee · 16th December 2013, 10:40 AM

Maybe it would be good to update the thread title with the info provided ? I don't have the required authorizations, it seems.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2013, 08:48 PM

As noted Neekee. Thank you again for presenting this and the other interesting items you have shared.

8th December 2013, 11:52 PM	#1
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	18th Century hanger or cutlass probably Dutch Hello, all ~ I'm new here, so I'll shortly introduce myself. I'm from France, and love history, and have been fascinated by the Medieval period eversince I was a kid. I am by no mean an expert in anything, but take interest in all kind of topics, ranging from weaponry to coins or ancient tools, for example. I only discovered this forum recently and have been amazed by the quality of the posts and information being shared here. It's still to this day not so easy to find valuable information about early Medieval to early Renaissance weaponry, and I have been reading topics on this forum with great surprise and interest for a week now. My financial state forbids me to collect original weapons from these times, but I do have a few things that were passed to me from my family that i can share if you're interested. Nothing too fancy though, I'm afraid. I did want to ask you guys about this blade because it's the only one that still partly holds some mystery to me. I've seen it around my grand parents' house since childhood and always thought it was only some 20th century decoration item, but noticed it was actually a quite proper weapon when I started actually researching those things some years ago. It was identified before as a "19th century German hunting sword", but no one so far could identify the marking on it. I wanted to ask you guys if you could validate or not this identification, and even better, if you could find the blacksmith to whom belonged this marking. Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the shared knowledge ! blade width: ~55cm handle width: ~13cm Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th December 2013 at 08:47 PM.

10th December 2013, 07:10 PM	#6
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	Thanks a lot for the insightful comments guys. I closely examined the blade again but couldn't find any other markings. The "sun" marking is on both side of the blades though, and I will provide new detailed shots with this post. Thanks again ! Attached Images

9th December 2013, 09:25 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	can you post photos of the whole sword (with but out of scabbard if it has one)?

9th December 2013, 09:31 AM	#3
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	Sorry there was a problem with attachments but i couldn't see it since my posts still are being validated by moderators. Edited now. ^^

9th December 2013, 03:56 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	any other markings on the blade? looks like something about 1/4 the way down from the grip. a quick search did not reveal anything on that sun marking near the hilt. i'm sure our other experts have much better reference materials tho. many swords had blades made in solingen, and were hilted in other countries, such as france. curved hunting sabres/hangers were not the norm. looks a bit too simple for french tho y'all liked them ornate back then. i'm sure a ship's officer would have liked to carry a handy weapon like that tho. my initial impression was 18c but it's not really an area i'm very knowledgeable in.

10th December 2013, 05:28 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Neekee welcome to the forum!! and thank you for sharing this very nice hanger which while of the general form of European hunting swords would be hard to classify as 'German'. I would presume this more likely 18th century as Kronckew has noted, and as he also has suggested, there does seem to be some kind of configuration further down the blade. The deep circular stamp near the forte seems possibly to be a rather stylized version of what is often termed loosely the 'Dutch star' ("Blanke Wapens", Puype, p.50) which commonly occurred on Dutch blades. According to notes from Fernando taken from a Dutch curator, these radiating figures similar to a sunburst or sunflower were a kind of paternoster. As often the case, these kinds of marks are not attributed to a particular maker, but favored by certain groups or regions in varying periods and applied in rather a talismanic sense. Other dialogue has suggested these often deep set devices seem to have ceased use about middle of 18th c. While Solingen indeed provided many blades to European markets, a number of smiths emigrated to Netherlands where they continued production. These hangers were favored by gentry and nobility as riding swords and were favored as well by officers, often naval as Kronkew notes. These swords were also often considered dress or even court swords.The stylized nature of the stamp suggests this blade may be later in 18th century, and the form was in use into the 19th, but this example seems probably Dutch mid to later 18th century.

11th December 2013, 05:05 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	interesting tip. the dutch seem to like the clipped point on their sabres & klewangs.

12th December 2013, 02:09 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Gorgeous piece! A fine hanger, as used by both hunting gentry, infantry and naval officers of the period. I'd add that it probably is earlier- ca. 1700-30, based on flat cap pommel, shell guard (in vogue from 1700 on, earlier types jutted straight out from piece) and knuckle bow with ball decoration mid-curve (fell out of favor after 1730's). Thus, a hanger we can date more concisely than most. A hanger I'd be proud to own! No, I mean it! If you ever decide to sell...

12th December 2013, 12:07 PM	#10
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	ahaha, sorry M ELEY, it's a family gift ^^ Thanks for the additional info though. So, so far, we've got: . marking suggests a Dutch blade. . classified as "hanger" (this word doesn't exist in French apparently), so not necessarily used for hunting . early to late 18th century, which is awesome news to me ^^ I sure wish my great uncle was still around so I could ask him where it came from. This makes me really curious to know if it actually came down the family line or he purchased it himself. Thanks a lot again to all of you

12th December 2013, 08:51 PM	#12
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	Hi Ibrahiim ! Sorry but like I said there aren't any noticeable markings on the blade. I'll try to take better pictures for you in plain daylight tomorrow.

13th December 2013, 07:05 PM	#15
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	Couteau, from Old French coutel, from Latin cultellus a little knife. Couteau really means "knife" in French, not sword or saber. Sword could be "épée", saber would be "sabre". Although it's always hard to know what the old use for these words used to be. I couldn't find an equivalent to the English term "hanger". The wikipedia page links to the French "sabre d'abordage" page, which would be a boarding sword. The collector who identified this sword as a "19th century german hunting sword" called it "dague" (dagger) and "couteau" -de chasse in the same email ... I didn't have time to take a picture of the blade today, but I can assure you again there are sadly no other markings. Thanks to all for your interest !

14th December 2013, 02:20 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Fernando and Neekee thanks so much for the interesting data on the etymology. In the study of arms there has always been such confusion and misnomer and in learning about them sometimes the terms by which they are called are often as the history of the arms themselves. It does sometimes present problems though in researching development of certain forms from contemporary narratives etc. as all you have is a verbal description without visual assistance, and a misplaced term sends you down an entirely different path.

16th December 2013, 10:40 AM	#17
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	Maybe it would be good to update the thread title with the info provided ? I don't have the required authorizations, it seems.

16th December 2013, 08:48 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	As noted Neekee. Thank you again for presenting this and the other interesting items you have shared.