Sabre I.D. -Naval? -Diplomatic?

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2017, 04:52 AM

The leaves on the pummel are very good.

fernando · 9th September 2017, 03:51 PM

Welcome to the forum, Jon

.
May i ask ... what makes you think the lower suspension ring is a fantasy ?
And ... can you tell us the length of the blade ?
One more thing: are there no marks at all ?

kronckew · 9th September 2017, 06:39 PM

doesn't look 'naval' to me. naval/infantry swords usually did not have heavy metal scabbards, cavalry could as the horse usually carried it. blade looks very 1796LC-ish with the hatchet point.

looks like a private purchase officer's cavalry sabre possibly late 18c - early 19c like the dates you mentioned, when such were allowed prior to standardisation. if it's length is under 30 in. it could be a naval officers personal hanger. middies didn't carry swords, even the old ones that might be older than the other commissioned officers that passed their exams. (they might carry a ship's cutlass tho.). are you sure the lower ring isn't just stuck? was there once a ring to attach the loose end of the chain to the pommel? the pommel looks more like it has a keeper and is peened, has it any exposed thread? a photo of it would be cool. shame no other markings...odd there appears to be no wear or oxidation, the ivoryor bone looks aged tho.

Jon MB · 9th September 2017, 07:14 PM

The sword knot has been added as an experiment, not suited, I know...

Anyway, pic of grip & pommel removed, by unscrewing nut at end of pommel.

Kmaddock · 9th September 2017, 08:25 PM

To me it looks unusually perfect
I have never seen such an unindented scabard and the blade looks pristine
The brass does not look rubbed at all with the ever so crisp casting
The only part that looks to be aged are the grips. Might it not be what it seems?
I have a good few 200 year old swords and this looks like straight out of the shop to me( bar the grips)

Jon where did you get the sword? Any story

Regards

Ken

Jon MB · 9th September 2017, 08:45 PM

I got it on an auction online. Upon first close examination, I initially thought, 'fake or modern production', but then I saw the piece has been heavily cleaned, and reconsidered. The cleaner 'Brasso' appears to have been used quite a bit, lots of residue. Blade had been sanded, but appears carefully made. Some fractures in the scabbard (not shown here, I put it away for now). Some visible patina left in the pic showing the languets closeup. The sellers described it as 'early 19th C. possibly Indian'.

I still recon a mid to late 19thC. dress piece,

But certainly open to all hypotheses.

kronckew · 9th September 2017, 09:57 PM

as it can be disassembled, might be possible for a jeweler to braze the chain mount back on the pommel, easier if disassembled. glue is a no-no. i worry about threaded tangs tho. at least it's not an acorn nut!

i did manage to google a couple of similar swords, different decorations, owner thought they were english or american, hussar swords, or infantry or a naval cuttoe, they never reached a definite conclusion tho. blade length? at 27 it may be a hanger, naval or otherwise. unlikely to be cavalry tho not impossible.

so, still a puzzle...

Jon MB · 10th September 2017, 12:34 AM

Some mid-19th C. US Militia swords for comparison.

Jon MB · 9th September 2017, 06:55 PM

Hi, thanks for helpful responses.

My comment on the lower suspension ring was only to say that I think it was the main 'load bearer', with the sabre intended to hang vertically, not at 45 degrees, (a-la-Hussard).

The chain anchor point came detached with the chain, it seems (formed as a half link, like those on the chain proper). A previous owner tried to glue it back on.

Overall length: 87 cm (34.3 inches)
Blade: 69 cm (27 inches)

will post a pic of the the pommel nut and thread on tang of sabre.

9th September 2017, 06:39 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	doesn't look 'naval' to me. naval/infantry swords usually did not have heavy metal scabbards, cavalry could as the horse usually carried it. blade looks very 1796LC-ish with the hatchet point. looks like a private purchase officer's cavalry sabre possibly late 18c - early 19c like the dates you mentioned, when such were allowed prior to standardisation. if it's length is under 30 in. it could be a naval officers personal hanger. middies didn't carry swords, even the old ones that might be older than the other commissioned officers that passed their exams. (they might carry a ship's cutlass tho.). are you sure the lower ring isn't just stuck? was there once a ring to attach the loose end of the chain to the pommel? the pommel looks more like it has a keeper and is peened, has it any exposed thread? a photo of it would be cool. shame no other markings...odd there appears to be no wear or oxidation, the ivoryor bone looks aged tho. Last edited by kronckew; 9th September 2017 at 06:51 PM.

9th September 2017, 07:14 PM	#4
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	The sword knot has been added as an experiment, not suited, I know... Anyway, pic of grip & pommel removed, by unscrewing nut at end of pommel. Attached Images

9th September 2017, 09:57 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	as it can be disassembled, might be possible for a jeweler to braze the chain mount back on the pommel, easier if disassembled. glue is a no-no. i worry about threaded tangs tho. at least it's not an acorn nut! i did manage to google a couple of similar swords, different decorations, owner thought they were english or american, hussar swords, or infantry or a naval cuttoe, they never reached a definite conclusion tho. blade length? at 27 it may be a hanger, naval or otherwise. unlikely to be cavalry tho not impossible. so, still a puzzle... Last edited by kronckew; 10th September 2017 at 09:24 AM.

10th September 2017, 12:34 AM	#8
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Some mid-19th C. US Militia swords for comparison. Attached Images

9th September 2017, 04:52 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,743	The leaves on the pummel are very good.

9th September 2017, 03:51 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,651	Welcome to the forum, Jon . May i ask ... what makes you think the lower suspension ring is a fantasy ? And ... can you tell us the length of the blade ? One more thing: are there no marks at all ?

9th September 2017, 08:25 PM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 533	To me it looks unusually perfect I have never seen such an unindented scabard and the blade looks pristine The brass does not look rubbed at all with the ever so crisp casting The only part that looks to be aged are the grips. Might it not be what it seems? I have a good few 200 year old swords and this looks like straight out of the shop to me( bar the grips) Jon where did you get the sword? Any story Regards Ken

9th September 2017, 08:45 PM	#6
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	I got it on an auction online. Upon first close examination, I initially thought, 'fake or modern production', but then I saw the piece has been heavily cleaned, and reconsidered. The cleaner 'Brasso' appears to have been used quite a bit, lots of residue. Blade had been sanded, but appears carefully made. Some fractures in the scabbard (not shown here, I put it away for now). Some visible patina left in the pic showing the languets closeup. The sellers described it as 'early 19th C. possibly Indian'. I still recon a mid to late 19thC. dress piece, But certainly open to all hypotheses.

9th September 2017, 06:55 PM	#9
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Hi, thanks for helpful responses. My comment on the lower suspension ring was only to say that I think it was the main 'load bearer', with the sabre intended to hang vertically, not at 45 degrees, (a-la-Hussard). The chain anchor point came detached with the chain, it seems (formed as a half link, like those on the chain proper). A previous owner tried to glue it back on. Overall length: 87 cm (34.3 inches) Blade: 69 cm (27 inches) will post a pic of the the pommel nut and thread on tang of sabre.