Markings on a Takouba-mounted European Backsword

[blue lander]

Hmm.. the writing on the blade may be latten inlaid too. From a distance it looks like the letters are just rusty, but under magnification they look more yellow. I'll try to get a non-blurry closeup.

[Jim McDougall]

I think these letters may have been latten filled, and it seems a good possibility this is a late 17th century cavalry (probably schiavona) blade .
The fact that the latten filled crescent arcs are there suggests more that this blade was inscribed in Europe.
These letters are too deeply stamped to have been done in the native perameters, and while the apparently poorly struck letters bear some resemblance to native alphabets, I am inclined more to European origin.

Still, this entire assemblage gives us great perspective to the kinds of influences which native armourers experienced, and it is hard sometimes to discern where European style ends and native takes over.
Frankly, this places this blade in 'jackpot' category!!!
It has become ever harder to find early blades in these contexts.

Ibrahiim, your notes and observations continue to perfectly illustrate the close parallels between European influence and these native interpretations. The undulating lines which are known in European context as serpents on blades in Italy and I think Spain in degree surely must have been seen by armourers in the Sahara. In their native folk religion it seems I have seen references suggesting the snake and magic of holy men were synonymous.

Blue Lander, again, thank you for sharing this amazing sword here!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think these letters may have been latten filled, and it seems a good possibility this is a late 17th century cavalry (probably schiavona) blade .
The fact that the latten filled crescent arcs are there suggests more that this blade was inscribed in Europe.
These letters are too deeply stamped to have been done in the native perameters, and while the apparently poorly struck letters bear some resemblance to native alphabets, I am inclined more to European origin.

Still, this entire assemblage gives us great perspective to the kinds of influences which native armourers experienced, and it is hard sometimes to discern where European style ends and native takes over.
Frankly, this places this blade in 'jackpot' category!!!
It has become ever harder to find early blades in these contexts.

Ibrahiim, your notes and observations continue to perfectly illustrate the close parallels between European influence and these native interpretations. The undulating lines which are known in European context as serpents on blades in Italy and I think Spain in degree surely must have been seen by armourers in the Sahara. In their native folk religion it seems I have seen references suggesting the snake and magic of holy men were synonymous.

Kronckew, again, thank you for sharing this amazing sword here!

I place here the incredible treatise on North African style transition and flow on Jewellery across the entire Ethiopian Tuareg and Hause regions

http://www.academia.edu/7634962/The_...nd_West_Africa...


Hello Jim, This is certainly jackpot country ... Insignias, capitals and marks on blades across North Africa have a huge pedigree and I can only note firstly that the snakes of which there are 5...are absolutely in the Islamic tradition...Fortunately this falls into the style of work both in Hausa, Tuareg and Ethiopian form since they also drew on Arabic decorations... So the 5 snakes were done in North Africa but what about the rest?

3 dots are straight off the alphabet form ... More difficult to argue since we see 3 dots in blades Latten filled but not on the side of the blade ...Apparently it is the small letter k.

The letter string is hugely difficult but if it does indeed say ZANCONA it may well have been done in Europe...

However, in terms of the North Africa Smiths (and there is vast evidence to support the import of European trade blades through hubs like Kano see reference below ) the Hausa, Tuareg and Ethiopian artisans were about as close to magicians as possible in peoples eyes as were the folk who wandered the country giving potents for medicinal purposes and magic signs to be placed on jewellery and swords. These weird folk who were apparently Jewish in days of old look the same now as they did then and it is quite startling when you encounter one today ...often in a Moroccan souk...they appear in all their traditional regalia and look 200 years old and instantly ready to whip up a spell !!.....

No doubt the art of the alchemist in Europe also knew these dark symbols ... though because the North African palette was so large hundreds of symbols could be called upon from Roman, Arabic through all the local dialects and mixed and muddled... It is quite interesting that some of the inscriptions had some meaning but often they had none... I think to drive us all mad !!

See the following link for an idea of the blade trade entering North Africa and flushing across the regions and imagine the trading stations they crossed Africa by... Here then is the hand of Trade stepping across Saharan regions as far as the Red Sea and the link in style on blades by local smiths setting down puzzles that in some cases cannot be answered fully.

https://books.google.com.om/books?id...mports&f=false

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Kronckew, again ---

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thanks, wrong thread

[Iain]

Interesting discussion. However I think it's important to keep in mind two things.

1. The markings on the forte plates was certainly done locally, it is engraved, not stamped as is typical and the mount was done within Africa. The symbols are typical and similar can be seen in the sword attached (formerly in my collection).

2. The blade marks are stamped deeply. I have zero doubts the blade stamps were done in Europe, it is my understanding these would be stamped while the blade as hot. Doing this after the blade left Europe would destroy the temper.

Engraving over stamping is quite typical when you see local additions to older blades within the context of takouba. Often fairly lightly scratched, or in the case of forte plates like this, a bit deeper. The difference to European stamps is quite clear when you handle these in person.

As for the meaning of the letters, I can't claim a better idea than any of the others posited here, however to my eyes the As are clearly Ms and one is badly stamped. I would doubt a clear meaning will ever be forthcoming from this inscription but that in do way hurts the appeal of this honest, hard working and quite old sword. I also favor a 17th century dating for this blade, likely originally a schiavona.

[fernando]

Yes ... Sir

[blue lander]

I'm not sure if that last character is a poorly stamped A or M, but up close it looks like it might be something else altogether.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Interesting discussion. However I think it's important to keep in mind two things.

1. The markings on the forte plates was certainly done locally, it is engraved, not stamped as is typical and the mount was done within Africa. The symbols are typical and similar can be seen in the sword attached (formerly in my collection).

2. The blade marks are stamped deeply. I have zero doubts the blade stamps were done in Europe, it is my understanding these would be stamped while the blade as hot. Doing this after the blade left Europe would destroy the temper.

Engraving over stamping is quite typical when you see local additions to older blades within the context of takouba. Often fairly lightly scratched, or in the case of forte plates like this, a bit deeper. The difference to European stamps is quite clear when you handle these in person.

As for the meaning of the letters, I can't claim a better idea than any of the others posited here, however to my eyes the As are clearly Ms and one is badly stamped. I would doubt a clear meaning will ever be forthcoming from this inscription but that in do way hurts the appeal of this honest, hard working and quite old sword. I also favor a 17th century dating for this blade, likely originally a schiavona.

Iain, these are superb pictures and the provenance looks sound etc.To my eye the locally done marks appear to be scratched on... whilst European strike marks are deeper indicating "done when hot". Clearly the other parts including the often large wrap or Adabel, African hilt and scabbard are tribally decorated ...with exceptions; where massive, often whole blade European design has been done by the supplier such as on Ethiopian swords commissioned often in Solingen...probably complete with hilts...

There are a lot of similarities with these East West African weapons...My problem is that on the first page typically we have about six Ethiopian, Hausa Tuareg variants...

For Forum Panel consideration...Would it be better ...do you think... to have all these Atlantic to Red Sea swords on the same big thread so that cross referencing can be simple and since much of the detail is interrelated through all the different alphabet and hieroglyph additions, local blade smith marks and origins of European species etc ? ... There are such similarities that are so easily missed when the subject is fractured all over the different pages on Ethnographic ...One mega thread would solve this in an instant... and research, study and informed detail would be transformed ...

Another way to do it would be a new thread ...A comparison of Red Sea to Atlantic weapons ...Ethiopian, Tuareg, Berber, Hausa Ashanti....( I leave it to Forum how this may be worded )

Ibrahiim al Balooshi