ID help needed

Kamil · 21st December 2004, 10:05 PM

Hi all!
I've watched the discussions here since a long time, and now I need your help. I've just obtained this piece. It's 33,2 cm long; on both sides of the blade there are incised lines, possibly originally all of them inlaid with copper (now most of it missing); next to the lines square brass plates with incised geometrical ornament are fixed on both sides of the blade. The trapezoid element between the blade and the hilt is rather loosely fitted (as is the hilt itself) and on one side, along the edges, it has lines inlaid with copper wire (?). The hilt is made of a dark wood, studded with elements made of silver (or silver coloured) wire. The pommel consist of alternating bone, copper, brass and wooden elements. The construction of the pommel reminds Tuareg daggers - possibly this could be a clue? The provenance of this piece cannot help: it comes reportedly from somewhere in Germany, but this information is by no means certain.

RhysMichael · 21st December 2004, 11:13 PM

Interesting piece the fittings do look Taureg but the blade looks similar to a Koummya. I look forward to seeing what it turns out to be

Kamil · 22nd December 2004, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Interesting piece the fittings do look Taureg but the blade looks similar to a Koummya. I look forward to seeing what it turns out to be

Well, but the blade begins markedly straight and the point seems slightly re-curved which would remind zirah-bouk - and this is rather impossible. Maybe the piece is composed of parts of two different daggers?

Lee · 22nd December 2004, 11:58 AM

For me the Moroccan and Tuareg influences are strong, so I'd tend to guess that it is a variant of a koummya, likely from well inland and over the Atlas mountains, where a Tuareg influence would be expected.

cylord21 · 22nd December 2004, 12:45 PM

Brass fittings and silver or white metal inlay points toward Moroccan-Tuareg influence, handle probably made of ebony.

Kamil · 22nd December 2004, 04:10 PM

As for the handle, it doesn't seem to be of ebony, the wood resembles rather mahogany. And concerning the blade, what about its almost-double curve? I must confess that I haven't seen such kind of koummaya. Does it exist?

dennee · 22nd December 2004, 07:38 PM

The blade is suggestive of a koummya, as is the pommel, albeit a very schematic representation of the Moroccan prototype.

The brass pommel cap or finial looks something like those on many Manding swords. Perhaps the source is to the south, perhaps Mali, where a lot of Tuareg weapons were produced, but near enough to Moroccan and Mandingo influences (there are Mandingoes in Mali, for example)?

Kamil · 22nd December 2004, 11:19 PM

I've had a feeling that I saw something similar, and here it is:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000809.html
Both pieces share a common type of pommel (and of the hilt, in a way) that slightly resembles that of a gladius. Maybe this type of daggers originated from an area closer to ancient Roman military camps where Roman weapons could have been seen by manufacturers?

dennee · 23rd December 2004, 02:41 PM

here's a comparable knife just auctioned on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ADME:B:WN:US:1

Kamil · 31st December 2004, 10:00 AM

Thank you for your comments. Does anyone know which kind of scabbard was used for this particular type of dagger?

21st December 2004, 10:05 PM	#1
Kamil Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Warsaw Posts: 33	ID help needed Hi all! I've watched the discussions here since a long time, and now I need your help. I've just obtained this piece. It's 33,2 cm long; on both sides of the blade there are incised lines, possibly originally all of them inlaid with copper (now most of it missing); next to the lines square brass plates with incised geometrical ornament are fixed on both sides of the blade. The trapezoid element between the blade and the hilt is rather loosely fitted (as is the hilt itself) and on one side, along the edges, it has lines inlaid with copper wire (?). The hilt is made of a dark wood, studded with elements made of silver (or silver coloured) wire. The pommel consist of alternating bone, copper, brass and wooden elements. The construction of the pommel reminds Tuareg daggers - possibly this could be a clue? The provenance of this piece cannot help: it comes reportedly from somewhere in Germany, but this information is by no means certain. Attached Images

23rd December 2004, 02:41 PM	#9
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	As luck would have it... here's a comparable knife just auctioned on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ADME:B:WN:US:1

21st December 2004, 11:13 PM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Interesting piece the fittings do look Taureg but the blade looks similar to a Koummya. I look forward to seeing what it turns out to be

22nd December 2004, 11:58 AM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 891	For me the Moroccan and Tuareg influences are strong, so I'd tend to guess that it is a variant of a koummya, likely from well inland and over the Atlas mountains, where a Tuareg influence would be expected.

22nd December 2004, 12:45 PM	#5
cylord21 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Caracas - Venezuela Posts: 15	Brass fittings and silver or white metal inlay points toward Moroccan-Tuareg influence, handle probably made of ebony.

22nd December 2004, 04:10 PM	#6
Kamil Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Warsaw Posts: 33	As for the handle, it doesn't seem to be of ebony, the wood resembles rather mahogany. And concerning the blade, what about its almost-double curve? I must confess that I haven't seen such kind of koummaya. Does it exist?

22nd December 2004, 07:38 PM	#7
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	The blade is suggestive of a koummya, as is the pommel, albeit a very schematic representation of the Moroccan prototype. The brass pommel cap or finial looks something like those on many Manding swords. Perhaps the source is to the south, perhaps Mali, where a lot of Tuareg weapons were produced, but near enough to Moroccan and Mandingo influences (there are Mandingoes in Mali, for example)?

22nd December 2004, 11:19 PM	#8
Kamil Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Warsaw Posts: 33	I've had a feeling that I saw something similar, and here it is: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000809.html Both pieces share a common type of pommel (and of the hilt, in a way) that slightly resembles that of a gladius. Maybe this type of daggers originated from an area closer to ancient Roman military camps where Roman weapons could have been seen by manufacturers?

31st December 2004, 10:00 AM	#10
Kamil Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Warsaw Posts: 33	Thank you for your comments. Does anyone know which kind of scabbard was used for this particular type of dagger?