Talwar, or Halab?

Pukka Bundook · 10th February 2007, 02:42 PM

Been reading E. Jaiwant Paul's book "By my sword and shield"

In his description of Indian swords, he describes a Halab, as being similar in length and shape to a Talwar, with the difference that the blade is slightly hollowed or grooved on either face, and the edge is chamfered.
(page 65)

My Q. is; Are a lot of what we call tulwars /talwars in actual fact Halabs?
(It seems about half the 'talwars' we see have fullered blades, and a chamfered edge)

Mr Paul goes on to say that Halabs normally have a russet iron hilt with knuckle-bow, and were favoured by the sind, as well as Sikhs.

Any comments???

Jens Nordlunde · 10th February 2007, 04:08 PM

Hi Pukka,

First you must remember that the word tulwar/talwar is used when describing many types of swords in general. Some say a tulwar with an Indian blade or a tulwar with a shamshir blade, but when the hilt is a tulwar hilt, it is a tulwar.

Secondly you should know, that the same sword often was called differently in the different parts of India, like the sosun patta, which in Hyderabad/Deccan was called a sailaba – or maybe it was even called by both names, who knows.

Thirdly, the Indians had many different names for weapons, which only differed little, names unknown to us to day, but maybe still known to someone in India.

So if the authors definition is correct, many of the ‘tulwars’ should be named halab, but I don’t understand what he means, by writing that the hilt mostly is of russet iron – I doubt that he means rusty

.

Jens

RhysMichael · 10th February 2007, 11:30 PM

OK here is what I have found on this so far its not much

In Stones -- Hilab, Halat A kind of Sikh, or Sind, sword with a grooved blade, finger guard and disc pommel ( Wallace Orient ). A variety of Tulwar

The term in not used that I have found in Rawson's "The Indian Sword"

The term is not used that I have found in Lord Tattons book

The halab sword is close to the talwar in shape and size, but the curved blade is slightly hollowed or grooved on either face and the cutting edge is chamfered. the Hilt is usually of russet iron and has a knuckle guard. This sword was popular with the Sind as well as the Sikhs. The Wallace collection in London has several halabs on display.One from the Sind dating to the eighteenth century has a hilt deccorated with ferns and inlaid in gold koftgari. The interior of the knuckleguard has an isncription in hindu -- Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India by E. Jaiwant Paul

The Encyclopedia of the Sword by Nick Evangelista --HALAB. A sword used by the Sikhs of India. It has a grooved blade, finger guard, and disk pommel. The halab is a variety of talwar, or Indian sabre. Also called a halat.

Sorry it is not more right now

Pukka Bundook · 11th February 2007, 01:49 PM

Thank you for the replies.

I should have known, If only I had stopped and thought about it, that a country as vast and culturally diverse as India would have many names for similar objects.
Having said that, I wonder if the name 'Halab' is actually recognised through-out India, to differenciate this Sind/Sikh sword from the Tulwar?

If it Was a recognised name as such, are we then doing a dis-service by over-simplifying things and calling everything with a tulwar type hilt a tulwar!?!?

Please, I'm not trying to confuse, but this to me is interesting!!

Jens,
I think by a russet iron hilt he may just mean the colour russet, (brown)

Jens Nordlunde · 11th February 2007, 03:06 PM

I don’t know if halab or halat is know to others than the Sikh’s and the Sindies, but I doubt it very much, or it would have been used more in the different books, and Jaiwant Paul mentions these two groups especially, which he would hardly have done, had the name been used over a bigger area.

You must also remember, that weapons found in armouries, like the one in Bikaner in Rajasthan, could very well have been made in Deccan or somewhere else, as they constantly had wars going on, and as the winner looted the looser there were a very big mixture of different weapons in the different armouries. Another ting is, that the Mogul rulers had several armies, one with mostly Muslims, on with mostly Hindus and one or two more, so when they were fighting the Persian king the Mogul ruler would use the Hindu army, but when he was fighting Hindu rulers he would use his Muslim army, to make sure the army would not suddenly turn against him.

RhysMichael · 11th February 2007, 05:18 PM

Might not have anything to do with how this name came to be and may cloud it more but I just was told that Raghs-e-Halat means Dance of Sufis.

10th February 2007, 02:42 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Talwar, or Halab? Been reading E. Jaiwant Paul's book "By my sword and shield" In his description of Indian swords, he describes a Halab, as being similar in length and shape to a Talwar, with the difference that the blade is slightly hollowed or grooved on either face, and the edge is chamfered. (page 65) My Q. is; Are a lot of what we call tulwars /talwars in actual fact Halabs? (It seems about half the 'talwars' we see have fullered blades, and a chamfered edge) Mr Paul goes on to say that Halabs normally have a russet iron hilt with knuckle-bow, and were favoured by the sind, as well as Sikhs. Any comments???

10th February 2007, 04:08 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Pukka, First you must remember that the word tulwar/talwar is used when describing many types of swords in general. Some say a tulwar with an Indian blade or a tulwar with a shamshir blade, but when the hilt is a tulwar hilt, it is a tulwar. Secondly you should know, that the same sword often was called differently in the different parts of India, like the sosun patta, which in Hyderabad/Deccan was called a sailaba – or maybe it was even called by both names, who knows. Thirdly, the Indians had many different names for weapons, which only differed little, names unknown to us to day, but maybe still known to someone in India. So if the authors definition is correct, many of the ‘tulwars’ should be named halab, but I don’t understand what he means, by writing that the hilt mostly is of russet iron – I doubt that he means rusty. Jens

10th February 2007, 11:30 PM	#3
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	OK here is what I have found on this so far its not much In Stones -- Hilab, Halat A kind of Sikh, or Sind, sword with a grooved blade, finger guard and disc pommel ( Wallace Orient ). A variety of Tulwar The term in not used that I have found in Rawson's "The Indian Sword" The term is not used that I have found in Lord Tattons book The halab sword is close to the talwar in shape and size, but the curved blade is slightly hollowed or grooved on either face and the cutting edge is chamfered. the Hilt is usually of russet iron and has a knuckle guard. This sword was popular with the Sind as well as the Sikhs. The Wallace collection in London has several halabs on display.One from the Sind dating to the eighteenth century has a hilt deccorated with ferns and inlaid in gold koftgari. The interior of the knuckleguard has an isncription in hindu -- Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India by E. Jaiwant Paul The Encyclopedia of the Sword by Nick Evangelista --HALAB. A sword used by the Sikhs of India. It has a grooved blade, finger guard, and disk pommel. The halab is a variety of talwar, or Indian sabre. Also called a halat. Sorry it is not more right now Last edited by RhysMichael; 11th February 2007 at 01:00 AM.

11th February 2007, 01:49 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thank you for the replies. I should have known, If only I had stopped and thought about it, that a country as vast and culturally diverse as India would have many names for similar objects. Having said that, I wonder if the name 'Halab' is actually recognised through-out India, to differenciate this Sind/Sikh sword from the Tulwar? If it Was a recognised name as such, are we then doing a dis-service by over-simplifying things and calling everything with a tulwar type hilt a tulwar!?!? Please, I'm not trying to confuse, but this to me is interesting!! Jens, I think by a russet iron hilt he may just mean the colour russet, (brown)

11th February 2007, 03:06 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I don’t know if halab or halat is know to others than the Sikh’s and the Sindies, but I doubt it very much, or it would have been used more in the different books, and Jaiwant Paul mentions these two groups especially, which he would hardly have done, had the name been used over a bigger area. You must also remember, that weapons found in armouries, like the one in Bikaner in Rajasthan, could very well have been made in Deccan or somewhere else, as they constantly had wars going on, and as the winner looted the looser there were a very big mixture of different weapons in the different armouries. Another ting is, that the Mogul rulers had several armies, one with mostly Muslims, on with mostly Hindus and one or two more, so when they were fighting the Persian king the Mogul ruler would use the Hindu army, but when he was fighting Hindu rulers he would use his Muslim army, to make sure the army would not suddenly turn against him.

11th February 2007, 05:18 PM	#6
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Might not have anything to do with how this name came to be and may cloud it more but I just was told that Raghs-e-Halat means Dance of Sufis.