Ming Jian

josh stout · 2nd June 2009, 07:09 PM

At Timonium, I presented some village jian. I tried to show a wide range of styles and made an attempt at providing some dates. Here is an example of one I got spectacularly wrong. It has a very slim blade that caught Nick's attention right away due to its resemblance to a kiem. He and Phillip Tom wondered if it was a Vietnamese blade or if it was, perhaps, in an even unlikelier possibility, a Ming blade of the type that had inspired the kiem. I sent it off to Phillip because he seemed unusually excited by it and waited for the result.

Well the result was completely unexpected. I had grouped this jian with later examples of village things because of its 19th c. village style handle fittings. Luckily I had also bought it at a price appropriate for such an object. The reality floored me.

Phillip says it is in fact almost certainly a Ming jian and not necessarily late Ming. The handle fittings make it in his words “a prince in pauper's clothing." It is indeed of the type that influenced the development of the kiem as documented in period Chinese artwork, some of which is found at the Met (to be shown in an upcoming book by Phillip and Scott.) Apparently my jian is the only known example outside of the illustrations. The slim blade is superficially like that of kiem, but with an edge geometry that allows use as a cutting weapon as well as the obvious use for thrusting. The steel is extremely fine grained with a subtle temper line and no forge flaws, precluding its manufacture by a village smith. The work is too high quality and too time consuming for something to be used by a peasant militia. How it came to be re-hilted in the late 19th c. is of course a mystery, but it highlights the extremely long active life of Chinese weapons, and what I see as the tendency of Chinese villagers to never let a good piece of steel out of their hands once they have it.

Josh

Pictures by Phillip Tom

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...1overall_1.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...2overall_2.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...J-03hilt_3.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...-04forte_4.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...MJ-05tip_5.jpg

Rick · 2nd June 2009, 08:22 PM

Dontcha just love it when stuff like this happens !?!

Congratulations Josh .

Way to go !

Rick

Nathaniel · 3rd June 2009, 05:12 AM

Very cool. Thanks for sharing, Josh!!

Amuk Murugul · 3rd June 2009, 05:35 AM

Hullo everybody,

Thanks Josh!

Best,

Gavin Nugent · 3rd June 2009, 10:31 AM

Congrats Josh,

Superb piece and a great length.
It seems in quality so akin to some of the finest japanese swords and it is certainly something that is rarely seen.

All the best and thanks for sharing.

Gav

G. McCormack · 3rd June 2009, 03:46 PM

Fascinating! Do you have the weight? Any pics of the tang?

Lee · 3rd June 2009, 05:41 PM

Very nice. I have always found these earlier blades that have been remounted for a much later working life to be most interesting and it is always a thrill when such a sleeper is discovered. A favorite example of mine is in the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum (Zurich, IN6986) where a 7th - 8th century pattern-welded blade has been fitted with a c. 1510 katzbalger hilt!

josh stout · 4th June 2009, 01:51 PM

Thanks for the congratulations. Unfortunately there is no easy way to get a handle off a Chinese sword without some damage so the tang will remain hidden. From memory, the weight is about 800g.

Before I knew what it was, it was my regular practice sword and a pleasure to work with. It is fast but with a balance far enough up the blade to make it feel substantial on the cuts. I first thought it was a modern mono-steel copy because I couldn’t see any lines and someone had put it on a buffer. I cleaned it a bit and noticed a very faint temper line, and it felt so good in the hand, lively, with literally a "good vibration" that I thought it was worth keeping around. Usually it is the look that attracts me to a sword, but in this case it was as much the feel of it. So I put it in the corner as a practice weapon, and brought it to Timonium as an afterthought. It looked lonely in the corner, and I thought the unusually slim blade might be of interest because of its similarities to Vietnamese things.

I can’t wait to see it in person with a full polish.
Josh

fearn · 4th June 2009, 05:50 PM

Hi Josh,

Neat blade. My teacher had a 100-year old jian that had a similar "good feel," and he used it as a practice blade. I hope that when you get this one back, you will continue to practice with it. It's a beauty.

Best,

F

2nd June 2009, 07:09 PM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Ming Jian At Timonium, I presented some village jian. I tried to show a wide range of styles and made an attempt at providing some dates. Here is an example of one I got spectacularly wrong. It has a very slim blade that caught Nick's attention right away due to its resemblance to a kiem. He and Phillip Tom wondered if it was a Vietnamese blade or if it was, perhaps, in an even unlikelier possibility, a Ming blade of the type that had inspired the kiem. I sent it off to Phillip because he seemed unusually excited by it and waited for the result. Well the result was completely unexpected. I had grouped this jian with later examples of village things because of its 19th c. village style handle fittings. Luckily I had also bought it at a price appropriate for such an object. The reality floored me. Phillip says it is in fact almost certainly a Ming jian and not necessarily late Ming. The handle fittings make it in his words “a prince in pauper's clothing." It is indeed of the type that influenced the development of the kiem as documented in period Chinese artwork, some of which is found at the Met (to be shown in an upcoming book by Phillip and Scott.) Apparently my jian is the only known example outside of the illustrations. The slim blade is superficially like that of kiem, but with an edge geometry that allows use as a cutting weapon as well as the obvious use for thrusting. The steel is extremely fine grained with a subtle temper line and no forge flaws, precluding its manufacture by a village smith. The work is too high quality and too time consuming for something to be used by a peasant militia. How it came to be re-hilted in the late 19th c. is of course a mystery, but it highlights the extremely long active life of Chinese weapons, and what I see as the tendency of Chinese villagers to never let a good piece of steel out of their hands once they have it. Josh Pictures by Phillip Tom http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...1overall_1.jpg http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...2overall_2.jpg http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...J-03hilt_3.jpg http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...-04forte_4.jpg http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...MJ-05tip_5.jpg

3rd June 2009, 10:31 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Superb Josh Congrats Josh, Superb piece and a great length. It seems in quality so akin to some of the finest japanese swords and it is certainly something that is rarely seen. All the best and thanks for sharing. Gav

3rd June 2009, 05:41 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 891	Nice! Very nice. I have always found these earlier blades that have been remounted for a much later working life to be most interesting and it is always a thrill when such a sleeper is discovered. A favorite example of mine is in the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum (Zurich, IN6986) where a 7th - 8th century pattern-welded blade has been fitted with a c. 1510 katzbalger hilt!

2nd June 2009, 08:22 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Dontcha just love it when stuff like this happens !?! Congratulations Josh . Way to go ! Rick

3rd June 2009, 05:12 AM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Very cool. Thanks for sharing, Josh!!

3rd June 2009, 05:35 AM	#4
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 457	Hullo everybody, Thanks Josh! Best,

3rd June 2009, 03:46 PM	#6
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Fascinating! Do you have the weight? Any pics of the tang?

4th June 2009, 01:51 PM	#8
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Thanks for the congratulations. Unfortunately there is no easy way to get a handle off a Chinese sword without some damage so the tang will remain hidden. From memory, the weight is about 800g. Before I knew what it was, it was my regular practice sword and a pleasure to work with. It is fast but with a balance far enough up the blade to make it feel substantial on the cuts. I first thought it was a modern mono-steel copy because I couldn’t see any lines and someone had put it on a buffer. I cleaned it a bit and noticed a very faint temper line, and it felt so good in the hand, lively, with literally a "good vibration" that I thought it was worth keeping around. Usually it is the look that attracts me to a sword, but in this case it was as much the feel of it. So I put it in the corner as a practice weapon, and brought it to Timonium as an afterthought. It looked lonely in the corner, and I thought the unusually slim blade might be of interest because of its similarities to Vietnamese things. I can’t wait to see it in person with a full polish. Josh

4th June 2009, 05:50 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Josh, Neat blade. My teacher had a 100-year old jian that had a similar "good feel," and he used it as a practice blade. I hope that when you get this one back, you will continue to practice with it. It's a beauty. Best, F