Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14th April 2020, 10:02 AM   #1
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default Very confusing persian kard

I have a question about a very confusing Persian kard.

It's an all wootz steel Persian kard but two things are very strange :

The scabbard is not Persian but from Sudan???

Then it seems that the decoration was bruptally removed and another inscription was placed above.

Is anyone such as Kiwatek can translate this inscription to help??

Thanks

Attached Images
    
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th April 2020, 10:05 AM   #2
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default

this way better
Attached Images
 
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th April 2020, 10:10 AM   #3
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,465
Default

Hello Kubur,

It might have been the case the blade was badly rusted and the original koftgari was damaged/removed during the cleaning process, then the old cartouche was repaired, or alternately, a new cartouche was added.

Anyhow, this type of cartouche is not very common on Persian blades but on Turkish blades (Persian blades commonly had different type of decoration- see photos)

The blade can be also Turkish or North Indian. Unless we see more of the type of wootz, it would be hard to tell the difference.

PS: Ariel, I believe there can be discerned at least two sets of criss-cross hatchings that would point towards a secondary repaired/replaced cartouche.
Attached Images
   

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 14th April 2020 at 10:30 AM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th April 2020, 10:10 AM   #4
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,968
Default

Old bladed weapons very often come to us with their 3rd, 4th etc scabbards. Thus, IMHO, nothing surprising here.
And why do you think the original inscription was removed and replaced?
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2020, 01:21 PM   #5
Richard G
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 278
Default

The hatching and the inscription look fairly crude, and to my eyes at least, the wrong way up. Something I've noticed on several of these with the rough hatching.
Regards
Richard
Richard G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2020, 07:16 PM   #6
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard G
The hatching and the inscription look fairly crude, and to my eyes at least, the wrong way up.
Richard


It's what I think, if the scabbard is from Sudan I wonder if the inscription is from Sudan too...
I dream that kiwatek could help us...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2020, 08:35 PM   #7
kwiatek
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 83
Default

Sorry for absence. It has been a strange time ...

It says, in Arabic:

هدیة من سلطان سليمان الى جوهر اغا

'Gift from Sultan Sulayman (Süleyman) to Jawhar Agha (Cevher Ağa)'

I don't think we can take that as a serious attribution, though it doesn't look like a modern fake to me either. From an early age artisans copied royal inscriptions on humbler pieces.
kwiatek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2020, 04:15 PM   #8
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default

Please don't be sorry, your help is so valuable.
The most important is to be safe and healthy.
Thank you very much and I agree the inscription doesn't fit with the knife and was added later. At least, it's very chic!
Warm regards,
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2020, 11:14 PM   #9
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,470
Default

Zukran Kwiatek!
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2020, 04:22 AM   #10
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,968
Default

Kubur,
I see what you mean: in your #2 the right side of the inscription looks different from the left one. It is not as tight. Definitely the inscription was monkeyed with.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 09:25 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.