Re-hilted Bayonet? - Page 2

Robert · 20th July 2010, 11:40 PM

Just to make this post more interesting here is a recent addition. This one unlike all the others that I have in my collection and have seen in others has the remnants of steel ferrules on the front and the rear of the grip. The only information that I have at this time is the total length of 26 inches. I will post the rest of the measurements after it arrives. The pictures below are from the auction. All comments are more than welcome.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2010, 09:43 PM

This is absolutely fantastic Robert! and this example is what I really like best, early honest working weapons. What you have done here is assembled with these three pieces, a nice chronological selection of what Levine (1985) classifies a Central American dirk of Spanish colonial style (A8, p.461).

This was a great thread from 2008, although it digressed a great deal into terminology and intriguing, but heavy discourse regarding gauchos etc. which I hope will not be the case here. In looking at the form of the hilt, it recalls the Spanish colonial hangers (pre Mexican independence of 1821) which are termed 'round tang espadas' (Adams '85). These have the same kind of wood or horn grips in this shape with often brass spacers between. This is a feature of Spanish colonial hilts that seems to have prevailed throughout the Spanish trade empire clear to the Philippines and into the 20th century.

I would say your first example that began the thread is the most recent, probably turn of the century, and very well could be an Argentinian fabrication, with as noted, a British Martini Henry M1860 yataghan bayonet.
The "Spanish Main" was of course well in place in these times still, and we have discussed often the many forms of edged weapons, often with maritime association that kept South America and all of Latin America well connected.

The second example has the characteristic hilt sectioning, but has the distinct ring on the guard. The example in Levine seems to have a larger ring which is closed, while this is more of a curved quillon.

This apparantly older example seems to exhibit an even rougher and key representation of this appendage, and this example reflects the earlier examples of this form and the familiar quillon terminal styling carried from even earlier Spanish colonial swords. I wanted to add one of the examples of yours which corresponds beautifully to this one.

The Martini Henry bayonet 1860 attached is to correspond to the blade in example one.

Very, very nice!!!

Robert · 22nd July 2010, 10:44 PM

Hello Jim and thank you for your reply to this post. I too really prefer "honest working weapons" over the more elaborate forms that seem to attract more attention from most collectors. Unfortunately when this one came to auction the seller had two examples up at the same time. Because of my low funds I had to decide which one to place the higher bid on and was lucky enough to win the one have posted while at the same time being outbid on the other.

Below are a few auction pictures of the one I missed.

dana_w · 23rd June 2014, 10:04 PM

Jim McDougall tells me "that finger ring identifies this as what is generally held to be a Central American dirk (Levine, 1985) and is from 19th c."

Rather than start a new thread, I will add some images to this one.

The photos are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved.

20th July 2010, 11:40 PM	#31
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Just to make this post more interesting here is a recent addition. This one unlike all the others that I have in my collection and have seen in others has the remnants of steel ferrules on the front and the rear of the grip. The only information that I have at this time is the total length of 26 inches. I will post the rest of the measurements after it arrives. The pictures below are from the auction. All comments are more than welcome. Attached Images

21st July 2010, 09:43 PM	#32
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	This is absolutely fantastic Robert! and this example is what I really like best, early honest working weapons. What you have done here is assembled with these three pieces, a nice chronological selection of what Levine (1985) classifies a Central American dirk of Spanish colonial style (A8, p.461). This was a great thread from 2008, although it digressed a great deal into terminology and intriguing, but heavy discourse regarding gauchos etc. which I hope will not be the case here. In looking at the form of the hilt, it recalls the Spanish colonial hangers (pre Mexican independence of 1821) which are termed 'round tang espadas' (Adams '85). These have the same kind of wood or horn grips in this shape with often brass spacers between. This is a feature of Spanish colonial hilts that seems to have prevailed throughout the Spanish trade empire clear to the Philippines and into the 20th century. I would say your first example that began the thread is the most recent, probably turn of the century, and very well could be an Argentinian fabrication, with as noted, a British Martini Henry M1860 yataghan bayonet. The "Spanish Main" was of course well in place in these times still, and we have discussed often the many forms of edged weapons, often with maritime association that kept South America and all of Latin America well connected. The second example has the characteristic hilt sectioning, but has the distinct ring on the guard. The example in Levine seems to have a larger ring which is closed, while this is more of a curved quillon. This apparantly older example seems to exhibit an even rougher and key representation of this appendage, and this example reflects the earlier examples of this form and the familiar quillon terminal styling carried from even earlier Spanish colonial swords. I wanted to add one of the examples of yours which corresponds beautifully to this one. The Martini Henry bayonet 1860 attached is to correspond to the blade in example one. Very, very nice!!! Attached Images

22nd July 2010, 10:44 PM	#33
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Jim and thank you for your reply to this post. I too really prefer "honest working weapons" over the more elaborate forms that seem to attract more attention from most collectors. Unfortunately when this one came to auction the seller had two examples up at the same time. Because of my low funds I had to decide which one to place the higher bid on and was lucky enough to win the one have posted while at the same time being outbid on the other. Below are a few auction pictures of the one I missed. Attached Images

23rd June 2014, 10:04 PM	#34
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Jim McDougall tells me "that finger ring identifies this as what is generally held to be a Central American dirk (Levine, 1985) and is from 19th c." Rather than start a new thread, I will add some images to this one. The photos are copyright (c) 2014 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved. Attached Images