Question On Age

Robert · 20th October 2007, 06:48 PM

Something else I've had for awhile. Horn grip with steel ferrell. Leather scabbard missing end. Blade taper ground on both sides. Supposed to have been brought back after the Spanish American War. The blade has "A Souvenir P." stamped into the blade that looks like it was done with a cold chisel. Also has IIIXIII carved into the spine of the blade at the hilt. I forgot to take a picture of this area. Was this a common practice at the turn of the century or is the from the second WW? It seems to well made and heavy to be just a tourist piece. Comments please.

Blade length 18-3/4"
Blade at widest 1-9/16"
Blade thickness at hilt 3/8"
Hilt length 6-1/2"

Robert

Battara · 20th October 2007, 07:47 PM

Well (being a deep subject and all

) this is from Pampangas and called a tabak. I think it is perhaps from the turn of the century and not WWII. Many of these were picked up as souvenirs off of dead Filipino "insurgents" by Americans in the Philippine-American War. Not easy to have the scabbard with it, much less in good condition. The pommel is horn and the ferrule seems brass? Nice piece. I like these.

Robert · 20th October 2007, 10:53 PM

Hi Jose,
I guess it would have been better if I had put a name with it when I first posted it. Seems my last two working brain cells have gone south for the winter.

Just wish they had taken me with them. I'm glad to here turn of the century and not WWII. The ferrule is steel instead of brass. Would the end of the scabbard been covered with a metal fitting of just leather? As always thank you very much for all your help. Here is a picture of the top of the blade at the hilt.

Robert

fernando · 20th October 2007, 11:51 PM

Amazing.
Aren't those the maker's marks?
A similar system was used by the blade makers of Canary Islands knives.
But maybe this has nothing to do with that

fernando

Battara · 21st October 2007, 06:24 PM

Robert, in most cases there was not a metal chape at the bottom of the scabbard.

Fernando, this is a good question. In this case, the "x" is a talismanic mark in the Philippines.

Robert · 21st October 2007, 07:39 PM

Hi Jose,
The reason I am thinking that this might have had a metal chape at one time is at the end of the scabbard where the tooling ends there are three sets of punch marks that are very similar to ones on another scabbard I have. On this other scabbard the indentations made by the punch are what holds the chape in place.
As to the X being a talismanic mark. Do you know what the exact meaning of this symbol is? When Fernando ask this question I started looking to see if I could find anything about it but had no luck. I would be very interested in finding out as quite a few of the items I have are decorated in this manor.

Robert

kai · 21st October 2007, 09:46 PM

Quote:

In this case, the "x" is a talismanic mark in the Philippines.

The "X" as well as "|" are found all over the Southeast Asian archipelago and seems to be associated with protective meaning regardless of origin. However, I haven't been able to obtain info on details either.

Regards,
Kai

Mark · 22nd October 2007, 02:24 PM

It's also found on Burmese & Shan dha, usually repeated two or more times, and often with a small brass inset along with it.

asomotif · 22nd October 2007, 05:22 PM

Amazing to see how the X on the back of blades turns up everywhere.

I have them on a Ladieng or Klewang from sumatra and seen them on mandaus.

Battara · 22nd October 2007, 11:04 PM

Well, in Cato he mentions "x" marks as being talismanic, but does not go any deeper than this. Yes I have seen these on other SE Asian pieces as well and thought the same or similar.

Nice example Asomotif, thanks.

Oh and regarding the holes in the top of the scabbard, I did not notice those very well until you mentioned them. I could be for a chape, but look closer - they could be where a thinner piece of colored leather was threaded.

fernando · 22nd October 2007, 11:36 PM

Sorry to divert.
I know connections are implausible, but here goes the Canary Islands example. It seems the "X" is quite a popular sign.

Nonoy Tan · 23rd October 2007, 01:43 AM

Those talismanic symbols baffle me as well - particularly those with an "X" surrounded by three lines on each side, and other variations. I suspect that some of the variations could be coincidental, as the "X" seems to be a universally used symbol. On the other hand, I also suspect that some of these talismanic symbols appearing in weaponry may be a clue to a common ancestral belief shared by the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, and east continental Asia (where "migrations" into the Southeast Asian islands supposedly originated). It would be interesting to see the same talismanic symbols appearing in very, very old weapons as that can provide an indication of the age of such beliefs.

Here is an old Negrito arrow showing the symbols. The Negritos are known to be the earlier inhabitants of the Philippines (before the migration of the "Indonesians" and Malay into the country). Also here is a photo of a warrior (Moro? - I don't know) who appears to have some Negrito ancestry (due to the curly hair). Notice the "X" marks on his body. Coincidence? - Apparently, we need more information. Maybe somebody can provide a more accurate origin of the man in the photo which was supposedly taken in 1870 (?).

It is possible that the talismanic symbol on a blade can provide general information on its age range?

Jim McDougall · 23rd October 2007, 05:50 AM

It seems to me like the 'X' just as the cross, was a universally employed symbol that applied to the four directions, corners of the earth etc. that convergantly became recognized tribally in many diverse regions.

Battara · 24th October 2007, 12:56 AM

Nonoy and Jim, you bring up a good point. In Jungian terms, this may be an archetypal symbol for the region and beyond.

20th October 2007, 06:48 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Question On Age Something else I've had for awhile. Horn grip with steel ferrell. Leather scabbard missing end. Blade taper ground on both sides. Supposed to have been brought back after the Spanish American War. The blade has "A Souvenir P." stamped into the blade that looks like it was done with a cold chisel. Also has IIIXIII carved into the spine of the blade at the hilt. I forgot to take a picture of this area. Was this a common practice at the turn of the century or is the from the second WW? It seems to well made and heavy to be just a tourist piece. Comments please. Blade length 18-3/4" Blade at widest 1-9/16" Blade thickness at hilt 3/8" Hilt length 6-1/2" Robert Attached Images

20th October 2007, 10:53 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Jose, I guess it would have been better if I had put a name with it when I first posted it. Seems my last two working brain cells have gone south for the winter. Just wish they had taken me with them. I'm glad to here turn of the century and not WWII. The ferrule is steel instead of brass. Would the end of the scabbard been covered with a metal fitting of just leather? As always thank you very much for all your help. Here is a picture of the top of the blade at the hilt. Robert Attached Images

20th October 2007, 11:51 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Amazing. Aren't those the maker's marks? A similar system was used by the blade makers of Canary Islands knives. But maybe this has nothing to do with that fernando Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2007 at 12:04 AM. Reason: spelling

22nd October 2007, 05:22 PM	#9
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	X pattern on blades Amazing to see how the X on the back of blades turns up everywhere. I have them on a Ladieng or Klewang from sumatra and seen them on mandaus. Attached Images

22nd October 2007, 11:36 PM	#11
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Sorry to divert. I know connections are implausible, but here goes the Canary Islands example. It seems the "X" is quite a popular sign. Attached Images

20th October 2007, 07:47 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Well (being a deep subject and all ) this is from Pampangas and called a tabak. I think it is perhaps from the turn of the century and not WWII. Many of these were picked up as souvenirs off of dead Filipino "insurgents" by Americans in the Philippine-American War. Not easy to have the scabbard with it, much less in good condition. The pommel is horn and the ferrule seems brass? Nice piece. I like these.

21st October 2007, 06:24 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Robert, in most cases there was not a metal chape at the bottom of the scabbard. Fernando, this is a good question. In this case, the "x" is a talismanic mark in the Philippines.

21st October 2007, 07:39 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Jose, The reason I am thinking that this might have had a metal chape at one time is at the end of the scabbard where the tooling ends there are three sets of punch marks that are very similar to ones on another scabbard I have. On this other scabbard the indentations made by the punch are what holds the chape in place. As to the X being a talismanic mark. Do you know what the exact meaning of this symbol is? When Fernando ask this question I started looking to see if I could find anything about it but had no luck. I would be very interested in finding out as quite a few of the items I have are decorated in this manor. Robert

22nd October 2007, 02:24 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It's also found on Burmese & Shan dha, usually repeated two or more times, and often with a small brass inset along with it.

22nd October 2007, 11:04 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Well, in Cato he mentions "x" marks as being talismanic, but does not go any deeper than this. Yes I have seen these on other SE Asian pieces as well and thought the same or similar. Nice example Asomotif, thanks. Oh and regarding the holes in the top of the scabbard, I did not notice those very well until you mentioned them. I could be for a chape, but look closer - they could be where a thinner piece of colored leather was threaded.

23rd October 2007, 01:43 AM	#12
Nonoy Tan Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 293	Talismanic Symbols Those talismanic symbols baffle me as well - particularly those with an "X" surrounded by three lines on each side, and other variations. I suspect that some of the variations could be coincidental, as the "X" seems to be a universally used symbol. On the other hand, I also suspect that some of these talismanic symbols appearing in weaponry may be a clue to a common ancestral belief shared by the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, and east continental Asia (where "migrations" into the Southeast Asian islands supposedly originated). It would be interesting to see the same talismanic symbols appearing in very, very old weapons as that can provide an indication of the age of such beliefs. Here is an old Negrito arrow showing the symbols. The Negritos are known to be the earlier inhabitants of the Philippines (before the migration of the "Indonesians" and Malay into the country). Also here is a photo of a warrior (Moro? - I don't know) who appears to have some Negrito ancestry (due to the curly hair). Notice the "X" marks on his body. Coincidence? - Apparently, we need more information. Maybe somebody can provide a more accurate origin of the man in the photo which was supposedly taken in 1870 (?). It is possible that the talismanic symbol on a blade can provide general information on its age range? Attached Images

23rd October 2007, 05:50 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	It seems to me like the 'X' just as the cross, was a universally employed symbol that applied to the four directions, corners of the earth etc. that convergantly became recognized tribally in many diverse regions.

24th October 2007, 12:56 AM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Nonoy and Jim, you bring up a good point. In Jungian terms, this may be an archetypal symbol for the region and beyond.