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13th January 2014, 07:45 AM
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#1 | |
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I have looked again and confirm my previous posts..I have considered the other deities you mention ie Leogryph, Yali or Sardula. Yali /Sardula looks like a soft faced horse..similar to a walrus face without tusks.. Leogryph don't spill/ spew monsters all over the place like Makara. Its what Makara do. Its what goes on all over the hilt of the Kastane..because the main handle is comprised the Makara. Perhaps its not easy, this recognition of Makara, not least because even in the minds of believers they (Makara) slide through several different phases changing slightly as they morph. It should be noted however that in the Karava dynasty they were very much in play as serpent derivatives and it is this form that was (I argue) construed by the makers of this sword; The Portuguese and Karava Royal Sword workshops. Even if I place in the margin the other countries in which Makara appear culturally including (Burma, Cambodia,China,India,Indonesia,Laos,Malaysia,Nepal ,Thailand,Vietnem Java)...but focus in on Sri Lanka specifically; I stand firmly behind this hypothesis (It's a Makara not a Lion)viz; Makara (Sinhala Mythology) 'Makara' is the Sinhala term for dragon, an important figure in Sinhala Buddhist culture in Sri Lanka. Thus to prove it I have lined up many Sri Lankan Buddhist related links. viz; History Since ancient time, easterners believe thet Makara is one of watery creatures and even from the pre-era of the field of Buddhist art, Makara has been depicted both in work of literature and stone carvings. Makara gained a distinctive position in the Sinhala Buddhist culture - a special place not given in Buddhist artwork in other countries. It is for that reason that we should not be surprised by the addition of the Makara spewing other religious deities, Nagas etc but we should note that Lion motifs do not do that. In Sinhalese ancient artwork Makara has been an invented creature; it is made up of body parts of six or seven animals such as the trunk of the elephant, jaws of the crocodile, ears of the mouse or ape, extruding teeth of wild swine, the tail plume of the peacock and feet of the lion. The plume of the Peacock is often seen on the rain-guard and or flowing down the throat of the Kastane blade. It is not associated with the Lion. Artistic Work It is obvious that the Sinhala artists attributed a special symbolic meaning to Makara by adding the picture of Makara around the said stone carving. In addition to that, the Sinhala artists have given more opportunities for Makara to enter into the art world. Dragon balustrade Dragon Balustrade at the entrance to Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi in Anuradhapura, Sir Lanka. The dragon balustrade is another kind of stone carvings which portray the Makara (dragon). These artworks used to decorate the entrance of Buddhist stupas, temples and Bo trees. There are two balustrades at the main entrance of Lankathilaka Viharaya in Kandy and they are sometimes called Gajasinha balustrades (ගඡසිංහ කොරවක් ගල්) because of the shape of the Makara there. Guard stones The guard-stone (මුරගල) has given a highest place to Makara. Over the head of the gatekeeper carved in there, the figures of Makara can be seen. Pandol. Makara pandol over the image of Lord Buddha in Dambulla cave temple. Doing what? Providing other deities to flank the main subject. Sinhala-buddhist artists considered Makara as the symbol of prosperity and self-sufficiency so they were not hesitant in portraying the sign of Makara in the entrance arch gateway to the religious places, such as temples, stupa or bodi. Precious examples for the above are Temple of the Tooth and Lankatilaka Temple in Kandy. Examples for the arched gateway with Makara over the image of Lord Buddha can be seen in Ridi Viharaya and Dambulla cave temple. Other Artefacts. A figure of Makara has been carved to the handle of a temple key of Gadaladeniya Temple built in 1344 in Diggala in the Kandy District. Flags Since long ago as of 1668, people in Karava (කෞරව) cast in Sri Lanka use a flag with the symbol of Makara which is called the Makara flag in their ceremonies. Not the Lion Flag ! The Pictures show; # The Makara Jewelery style; a reflection in the design of the Kastane hilt from the Makara. # The gold bangle is clearly of Makara form and the other bangle with coloured stones, rubies etc is noted as a Makara bangle by The Met Museum. # The two brown coloured pictures of the odd Horse deity (Yali or Sardula) with the soft walrus like face which is not like the Makara. # The picture of the Karava flag with Makara and Horseman ~ mirrored in the jewellery. # Kastane illustrating the Makara Hilt spewing other deities onto the hand-guard and cross guard which includes Nagas. # The peculiar chopping axe (Tibetan Vagra) giving rise to the strange quillon like devices on the Kastane.. proving a religious link. # Finally the peacock tail typical of the Makara, in addition, proves; The Makara Hilt.[B] Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th January 2014 at 11:21 AM. |
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13th January 2014, 11:43 AM
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#2 | |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
Thank you for your post on the cross cultural aspects of the Makara. Back to the large creature on the pommel of the Kastane. Please look closer to this link already provided and look at all the images again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yali_(Hindu_mythology) You have only chose to provide one image of the Yali in your latest, a known example with a trunk. Read also the notes within the link, Quote; "Other common examples are: the lion-headed (simha-vyala)" Unquote....these are the numerous images I refer to. Taking these lion-headed (simha-vyala) Yali or Leogryphs in mind, the ones with the exacting manes, teeth and general appearance of the Kastane pommel, there is much more visual evidence at hand that supports this creature, the Yali or Leogryph as being on the pommel, far more than the icons of the Makara as the imagery is so very different and nothing spews forth from the mouth of the Kastane pommel. Furthermore, using the notion that is it known that the Makara spew forth the Yali of Leogrypgh as communicated about a well known museum icon supported by yourself Quote:
Gavin |
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13th January 2014, 01:03 PM
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#3 | |
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Salaams Do you mean that the Kastane hilt design is a Yali or a Leogryph in your view? That would fly in the face of the very detailed hypothesis and Buddhist facts as laid down above. Leogryphs don't look like Makara in that they do not have peacock tails..dont emit supporting deities thus are not even vaguelly related to Makara which are sea monsters. The Makara are sea monsters but I assume the Leogryph went about its business in the jungle...it having the face of a large cat...and the legs and tail of a lion.... and didnt throw up quantities of minor deities... The Makara did. However to clear up the difference between Yali and Leogryph see http://cities.sulekha.com/worldwide/351329/review.htm and I will put pictures below.. to distinguish the main elements from Makara;..Both the Yali and Leogryph have cat like faces and tails of lion..(The Makara has a tail of Peacock). Neither cat like Deities casts quantities of Naga about the place as it is not their job in life...Yali and Leogryph are closely related and appear to be lion/tiger mixtures. Apologies to Buddhist followers for any inaccuracies and no flippancy intended. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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13th January 2014, 01:47 PM
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#4 |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
Yes I do mean the Kastane pommel and grip is that of Lion's face...whether in the Yali lion-headed (simha-vyala), LEO(lion)gryph or just plain lion it is unknown...it is not Makara. The Kastane pommel spits nothing from its mouth...why is it in your eyes a Makara when nothing spits from its mouth despite you claiming it does? The quillons and knuckle bows do not spew forth from the Pommel's mouth. The Kastane pommel is to my eye more the Sardula or the Yali Simha-Vyala, a more lion like creature but when there is a Makara spewing forth a knuckle bow with another head the same as the pommel, the Leogryph comes to mind based on the ancient ivory carvings in the Afghanistan museum that show the Leogryph coming forth from a Makara's mouth. The Lion in most important in Hindu cutlure from top to bottom of the land. While I will not weigh dieties against dieties for importance, the pommel is of Lion type, the Lion being highly regarded througout time within these lands.. Here is a very good representation of a Hindu Lion guardian from Nepal; http://stockfresh.com/image/566878/h...-guardian-lion I am sure you can see such a likeness that it is uncanny. If you think the lion is of little relevence, please read this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigiriya Gavin |
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13th January 2014, 02:42 PM
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#5 | |
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Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons; At your first reference You are right in considering (as I have done) the lions in Nepal which if you look carefully you will see that they do not have peacock tails nor do they emit deities all around. I have included a further picture which shows the tails of these beasts which are entirely of a different traditional icon... The Lion. Not the Makara. Note the tails! At your second reference there is a small note ONLY viz; Quote "There was a sculpted lion's head above the legs and paws flanking the entrance, but the head broke down many years ago" Unquote. Lions Gate though relatively important to Sinhalese culture in no way overshadows the vital detail of the Makara... They are entirely different issues. The business of deciding if the Kastane has a Makara or Lion hilt is vital in the understanding of its origins..and I have a duty to prove the truth irrespective of spurious counter claims from whatever quarter. It is a well known fact that dealers in Kastane rather than grasp the nettle over this conundrum of Makara versus Lion prefer to "sit on the fence" in their description and would rather put Makara or Lion ..When in fact it is a purely Makara deity. The history books, traditional, cultural and religious backup are all present in my posts ... It is proven in my opinion; Makara emit deities... it is their role. The other deities including the crocodile human faced deity on the hand guard and other serpents ~possibly miniature Makaras and Nagas issued from the mouth of the hilt "subject" with the peacock tail and adorning the cross guard and pseudo quillon ends (Vagra). It is a Makara Hilt. If it was a lion would it have a peacock tail? No. You are simply looking at this through another prism. It would seem to be rather cloudy. I have backed up my arguement with solid facts drawn from many angles using pictures and detail across a swathe of structures from art form, literature, mythological inclusion, history, archeology, artefacts, jewelery, religion, tradition and ethnographic arms... yet still you do not agree. because you think it doesn't look like it.. and you appear to see something else. What about the precise argument offered here? Perhaps you think that the hilt is of some other mysterious form? Moreover, having based your assumptions on entirely the wrong conclusions you may never join up the wires because your structure cannot match the theory of how this hilt was designed onto the weapon or by whom or when. The Karvara kingdom would have to have reduced the Makara to near insignificance to have it overtaken by the Yali and some strange maneuvering to have the wrong mythical beast emit minor monsters ...and to give the wrong creature a peacock tail??.. it makes no sense. Perhaps you may not have considered the religious inclusion of the Vagra in the design of the pseudo quillon structures? Do you not think that being blessed with Vagra finials that this Hilt would therefor need to be religiously correct? My advice to you is to read the thread again. Picture below in the same Nepalese square of the Lions with ...Lions Tails. Incidentally do you see any other deities being spewed forth from their mouths...? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 13th January 2014 at 03:20 PM. |
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13th January 2014, 08:33 PM
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#6 |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
The Lions could have Elephant tails or be blowing bubbles from there tails, the tail is not present in the icons of the Kastane we discuss. Equally the Makara could have a sheeps tail, it matters not as no Makara's tail is not present in the icons of the Kastane pommel we discuss. The lion icons throughout India and surrounding countries are a far more accurate in appearance to the Kastane pommel than any Makara within the world is. No one is denying you the right that Makara emit deities but these Kastane pommels are not emitting anything but tongues and teeth, hardly Makara Makara Deities. No one is denying the importance of place the Makara holds in the culture. The clouded prism you note is based on the icons known and the importance known thousands of years, not what details are NOT seen in the icons of your suggestions that it is a Makara. As visual historically important icons do not support your argument that the pommel is based on an the Makara, the point is rather empty. Why not suggest the hilt is Shiva the god of gods, Shiva is more important than any Makara and has as little visual similarities. No one is saying the Makara is reduced in any way throughout time but it is not carried in the Pommel of a Kastane. To answer your question, I see nothing spewing forth from the Nepal Lions mouth. Lions do not do this, nor do the Pommels of Kastane show this. Question to you; Please show me something other than a tongue and teeth issuing forth from the pommel of a Kastane. Question; Why was the mountain of Sigiriya not carved as a Makara. Note the Buddhists who were present here without it being a Makara. Question; When did the Makara become so distorted that it come to look like all the Lion icons in the lands. My advice to you is obtain every known image of the Makara and do the same with the lions Leogrypgh, Yali (simha-vyala) and start a checklist of the traits and qualities within these icons and you will see clearly on the paper in front of you that the Makara falls well short of being presented on the Pommel of the Kastane. Gavin |
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14th January 2014, 07:13 AM
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#7 | |
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Quote:
The minor deities crawl, slither or appear as the human face on the hand-guard as the humano/crocodile mythical creature already on thread at #56 . I note that further regurgitations occur from the miniature looking Makara especially on the handguard though the cross guard and Vagra finials appear to depict Nagas. The Nagas and or secondary mini Makara appear on the hand- guard and cross-guard finials and swooping over the guard onto the pseudo quillons appearing as finials on the Vagra tips. That is where the tail appears dressing usually the triangular rain-guard arrangement, sometimes, even flowing over onto and down the blade throat itself. Finally on the scabbard at the drag chape there is occasionally another monster emitting another deity...or perhaps fire. My plan is to show Makara with the tails of Peacocks since that is how the Buddhist religion shows their form. This is illustrated in Kastane Hilts etc in the following posts on this thread; 25, 52, 56, 71(Gunbutt), 78(door support), 115(Vagra),101,139, 147,150, 153. The Peacock tail is the form created onto the Makara by the religious structure Buddhism. Fact. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_...u_mythology%29 I will now illustrate peacock tails on the artistic "impressions" of this ancient mythical creature. Pictures below indicate the importance of understanding the essential ingredient... The Tail...in Peacock form of the Makara. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 14th January 2014 at 03:38 PM. |
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13th January 2014, 09:52 PM
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#8 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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Chaps...
The depicted Lion like temple Guardians from Nepal in this picture are often called Chinthe, in both Nepal & Burma. I agree There definatly Leogryphs in English language deduction. That's why the have lions tales.  Heres a great picture showing a liongryph ( of south Indian yali form} and makara figures on frieze at Narttamalai Pallava Cave Temple. from the seventh-eighth centuries.{From the Huntington archive.}  That may {or may not.} help your discusian.  Spiral |
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14th January 2014, 07:00 AM
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#9 | |
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Salaams Spiral Thank you for the detail and constructive criticism and references . I will now however quickly prove with pictures the Makara peacock feather tale about its tail. Then I shall make a very brave statement about the Kastane. I hope you can remain with me until then... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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