An actual New Land pattern pistol

fernando · 18th January 2013, 06:28 PM

This one was actually made in Britain ... in the Tower, for the case; period King William IV.
However a unit that saw its service in Portugal, as we may see by the Arsenal punction on the barrel, that of Queen Dona Maria II and also by the Regimental Marks, those of Regiment 1, Company B, Soldier 28.
Estimating the precise date of this pistol, within the span of King William realm (1830-37)...
Queen Dona Maria II reigned between 1834-53. The 1st. Cavalry Regiment was dissolved when the Liberal Wars ceased in 1834, leaving no later date for weapons allocation to that Regiment. We may then assume that this gun's production date is confined to 1830-34, when it entered Portugal.

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dana_w · 18th January 2013, 10:55 PM

Very nice. Is this a new acquisition Fernando?

Fernando K · 18th January 2013, 11:30 PM

Estimado Fernando:

Lo que me llama la atención, siendo una pistola reglamentaria (es visible la BO con la flecha:Board of Ordnance) es la ausencia de los punzones del Banco de Pruebas, de Londres o Birmimgham. Asismismo, no puedo descifrar lo grabado en la madera, del lado izquierdo: W.H...........

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Fernando K · 18th January 2013, 11:31 PM

Dear Fernando:

What strikes me, being a service pistol (BO is visible with arrow: Board of Ordnance) is the absence of the proof mark punches of London or Birmimgham. Also i can not decipher the wood engraving on the left: WH ..........

Affectionately. Fernando K

fernando · 19th January 2013, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dana_w

Very nice. Is this a new acquisition Fernando?

Yes, Dana.
Some swap i made during the last weekend.

fernando · 19th January 2013, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Dear Fernando:

What strikes me, being a service pistol (BO is visible with arrow: Board of Ordnance) is the absence of the proof mark punches of London or Birmimgham. Also i can not decipher the wood engraving on the left: WH ..........

Affectionately. Fernando K

Caro Fernando K,
I wouldn't know the reason for the absence of British proof marks; maybe because this was a Portuguese contract and proof tests were not needed in the origin Country. I know this is not an unique example; there is a similar pistol out there in the Net with the same MR marks on the barrel and no proof marks.
The initials WH are the only ones in the same line.
But below other lettering appears, not being easy to decipher; some name finished by .... MSON. I would like to know what these mean.

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kronckew · 19th January 2013, 06:06 PM

nice pistol. no hidden proof marks underneath the barrel?

william iv was also king of hanover at the same time he was king in the UK. royalty was pretty much interrelated back then, and is still. hard for them to find a royal mate of similar age they are not too closely related to.

his successor, victoria, managed to marry most of her children around the royal courts of europe - WW1 was in fact a squabble amoungst close family.

p.s. - what is the crown/B mark on the barrel? interim proof? germany also had a crown/B proof mark. it looks a bit mis-struck, could there have been another letter right of the 'B'?

fernando · 19th January 2013, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... what is the crown/B mark on the barrel? interim proof? germany also had a crown/B proof mark. it looks a bit mis-struck, could there have been another letter right of the 'B'?

There is no space under the crown for a second letter; and i would say this is not a case of mis-struck marking, but the irons that were worn.The example i have seen out there has the same failures in both barrel markings. Concerning the 'B', i wonder if it isn't a 'P' instead ... like for Portugal. On the other hand, i have been reading a couple books in my miserable library and learnt that some New Land variations had British mountings and Portuguese barrels; this would explain why there are no Brit. proof marks on the barrel.
I have also learnt something (for me) outstanding. The ramrod (front) end in this pistol is wider than the barrel bore; i thought this was a bad replacement and was about to take it to a turner to reduce its diameter. I have just read that the Brits didn't use this end to ram the bullet but the narrow end that is inside the pistol stock. Brits are really different ... no wonder they drive by the left

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... Just kiding, lads

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Fernando K · 19th January 2013, 10:40 PM

Dear Fernando:

El extremo de la baqueta, mas ancho que el calibre del cañón, no es para empujar la bala, sino para empuñar la baqueta. La parte que empuja la bala está en el otro extremo, y es la que queda metida en la caja. Se hace correr la baqueta de su cureña, y el extremo mas chico queda cerca y de la boca, y empuja la bala. Al sacarse, queda cerca del canal de la baqueta, y se introduce en el empujando desde el otro extremo-

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Fernando K · 19th January 2013, 10:42 PM

Dear Fernando:

The large end of the rod, wider than the bore of the gun, is not for pushing the bullet, but for griping the rod. The bullet pushing part is at the other end, which is left inside the stock. You slide the rod out and the narrower end reaches the barrel muzzle, to allow pushing the bullet. After drawing the rod from the barrel, it gets close from the forend chanel, when you introduce it by pushing the wide end.

Affectionately. Fernando K

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fernando · 20th January 2013, 12:45 PM

Thank you Fernando K,
I am aware of all the bullet raming operation with theses devices.
The thing is that, in non British ramrods that i have and also according to the book i have read, the wider (outer) end is narrow enough to do itself the raming, and also possible to operate with the device articulation, which functions both ways.
When raming with the wide end, you may hold the rod holdinging it with your fingers, instead of with the palm of your hand ... i guess like you do with musket rods.

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kronckew · 20th January 2013, 08:02 PM

having owned & fired black powder pistols from single shot smoothbores to colt walkers, and rifled muskets, one thing i was taught early on was to NOT palm the ramrod. it's a good way to lose a hand. fingering it you only lose a finger or two in case it discharges. palming may also exert excessive compression on the charge, and friction between the grains of powder and the bore can set off the charge. it might not happen often but once is too many.

ramrods were a pain in more than the hand in battle. adrenalin pumped soldiers frequently skipped little loading steps like removing the ramrod & wound up firing it down range. doing that with an articulated ramrod could ruin your day. at the least you are out of action till you can pick up someone else's ramrod. soldiers on the other side were sometimes speared by the opposition's ramrods. probably better than getting hit with a dirty great lead ball tho. sergeants checking troopers weapons sometimes found they had forgot to prime or fire between loadings, and had 5 or 6 charges stacked up in the barrel.

if the ramrod doesn't full go down the bore, you might have more in there than you think.

fernando · 20th January 2013, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... sergeants checking troopers weapons sometimes found they had forgot to prime or fire between loadings, and had 5 or 6 charges stacked up in the barrel....

It is also said that soldiers who were conscience opposers or simply wouldn't dare shooting, kept on loading their (non fired) weapons to ilude their sergeant.

kronckew · 21st January 2013, 08:19 AM

this did give an inventor an idea. one of the first attempts at a rapid fire multi shot weapon was a series of stacked charges and projectiles with touch holes located in the propellant section of each charge, and a sliding ignition system that was moved back after each shot. it never caught on. photo attached below.

oddly enough, there is a modern equivalent that progressed from that idea. it is called 'metal storm' which combines the stacked charge idea with the french multi-barrel mitrailleuse volley gun and an electronic firing system, and can adjustably burst fire up to one million rounds per minute. if you've not seen one in action, youtube has scads of videos.

the electronic system allows anything from 1 to 1x10^6 rpm, and can fire in waves, and patterns. rifles, pistols and 40mm grenade launchers are available.

fernando · 21st January 2013, 02:17 PM

I take it that you can not fire one of these if you are drunk. Have to be in a bright state of mind to avoid shooting the thing in the wrong sequence order ... assuming that it won't betray your best intention and burst itself due to vicinity effects

.

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kronckew · 21st January 2013, 07:17 PM

i think it was ratcheted to only go from front to back after loading. best not to have a glass of port or three before using it though.

the main reason it was not popular was it's nasty habit of roman candling. each charge rapidly setting off the one behind as a result of windage. instant but unexpected machine gun (MG). misfires were a bit annoying too. and it took a while to reload.

'metal storm' got around that MG problem by adding a seal of some sort that seats on the projectile nose and which then keeps the explosion in front of it from flashing over as the pressure seats the seal further. reloads are easier as they come pre-stacked in a tube which is inserted from the breech.

18th January 2013, 06:28 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	An actual New Land pattern pistol This one was actually made in Britain ... in the Tower, for the case; period King William IV. However a unit that saw its service in Portugal, as we may see by the Arsenal punction on the barrel, that of Queen Dona Maria II and also by the Regimental Marks, those of Regiment 1, Company B, Soldier 28. Estimating the precise date of this pistol, within the span of King William realm (1830-37)... Queen Dona Maria II reigned between 1834-53. The 1st. Cavalry Regiment was dissolved when the Liberal Wars ceased in 1834, leaving no later date for weapons allocation to that Regiment. We may then assume that this gun's production date is confined to 1830-34, when it entered Portugal. . Attached Images

18th January 2013, 11:31 PM	#4
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Dear Fernando: What strikes me, being a service pistol (BO is visible with arrow: Board of Ordnance) is the absence of the proof mark punches of London or Birmimgham. Also i can not decipher the wood engraving on the left: WH .......... Affectionately. Fernando K Last edited by fernando; 19th January 2013 at 03:14 PM.

19th January 2013, 06:06 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	nice pistol. no hidden proof marks underneath the barrel? william iv was also king of hanover at the same time he was king in the UK. royalty was pretty much interrelated back then, and is still. hard for them to find a royal mate of similar age they are not too closely related to. his successor, victoria, managed to marry most of her children around the royal courts of europe - WW1 was in fact a squabble amoungst close family. p.s. - what is the crown/B mark on the barrel? interim proof? germany also had a crown/B proof mark. it looks a bit mis-struck, could there have been another letter right of the 'B'? Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 19th January 2013 at 06:24 PM.

19th January 2013, 10:42 PM	#10
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Dear Fernando: The large end of the rod, wider than the bore of the gun, is not for pushing the bullet, but for griping the rod. The bullet pushing part is at the other end, which is left inside the stock. You slide the rod out and the narrower end reaches the barrel muzzle, to allow pushing the bullet. After drawing the rod from the barrel, it gets close from the forend chanel, when you introduce it by pushing the wide end. Affectionately. Fernando K . Last edited by fernando; 20th January 2013 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Translation atempt

20th January 2013, 12:45 PM	#11
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you Fernando K, I am aware of all the bullet raming operation with theses devices. The thing is that, in non British ramrods that i have and also according to the book i have read, the wider (outer) end is narrow enough to do itself the raming, and also possible to operate with the device articulation, which functions both ways. When raming with the wide end, you may hold the rod holdinging it with your fingers, instead of with the palm of your hand ... i guess like you do with musket rods. . Attached Images

18th January 2013, 10:55 PM	#2
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Very nice. Is this a new acquisition Fernando?

18th January 2013, 11:30 PM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Estimado Fernando: Lo que me llama la atención, siendo una pistola reglamentaria (es visible la BO con la flecha:Board of Ordnance) es la ausencia de los punzones del Banco de Pruebas, de Londres o Birmimgham. Asismismo, no puedo descifrar lo grabado en la madera, del lado izquierdo: W.H........... Afectuosamente. Fernando K

19th January 2013, 10:40 PM	#9
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Dear Fernando: El extremo de la baqueta, mas ancho que el calibre del cañón, no es para empujar la bala, sino para empuñar la baqueta. La parte que empuja la bala está en el otro extremo, y es la que queda metida en la caja. Se hace correr la baqueta de su cureña, y el extremo mas chico queda cerca y de la boca, y empuja la bala. Al sacarse, queda cerca del canal de la baqueta, y se introduce en el empujando desde el otro extremo- Afectuosamente. Fernando K

20th January 2013, 08:02 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	having owned & fired black powder pistols from single shot smoothbores to colt walkers, and rifled muskets, one thing i was taught early on was to NOT palm the ramrod. it's a good way to lose a hand. fingering it you only lose a finger or two in case it discharges. palming may also exert excessive compression on the charge, and friction between the grains of powder and the bore can set off the charge. it might not happen often but once is too many. ramrods were a pain in more than the hand in battle. adrenalin pumped soldiers frequently skipped little loading steps like removing the ramrod & wound up firing it down range. doing that with an articulated ramrod could ruin your day. at the least you are out of action till you can pick up someone else's ramrod. soldiers on the other side were sometimes speared by the opposition's ramrods. probably better than getting hit with a dirty great lead ball tho. sergeants checking troopers weapons sometimes found they had forgot to prime or fire between loadings, and had 5 or 6 charges stacked up in the barrel. if the ramrod doesn't full go down the bore, you might have more in there than you think.

21st January 2013, 08:19 AM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	this did give an inventor an idea. one of the first attempts at a rapid fire multi shot weapon was a series of stacked charges and projectiles with touch holes located in the propellant section of each charge, and a sliding ignition system that was moved back after each shot. it never caught on. photo attached below. oddly enough, there is a modern equivalent that progressed from that idea. it is called 'metal storm' which combines the stacked charge idea with the french multi-barrel mitrailleuse volley gun and an electronic firing system, and can adjustably burst fire up to one million rounds per minute. if you've not seen one in action, youtube has scads of videos. the electronic system allows anything from 1 to 1x10^6 rpm, and can fire in waves, and patterns. rifles, pistols and 40mm grenade launchers are available. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 21st January 2013 at 08:35 AM.

21st January 2013, 02:17 PM	#15
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	I take it that you can not fire one of these if you are drunk. Have to be in a bright state of mind to avoid shooting the thing in the wrong sequence order ... assuming that it won't betray your best intention and burst itself due to vicinity effects . . Last edited by fernando; 21st January 2013 at 04:20 PM. Reason: spell

21st January 2013, 07:17 PM	#16
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	i think it was ratcheted to only go from front to back after loading. best not to have a glass of port or three before using it though. the main reason it was not popular was it's nasty habit of roman candling. each charge rapidly setting off the one behind as a result of windage. instant but unexpected machine gun (MG). misfires were a bit annoying too. and it took a while to reload. 'metal storm' got around that MG problem by adding a seal of some sort that seats on the projectile nose and which then keeps the explosion in front of it from flashing over as the pressure seats the seal further. reloads are easier as they come pre-stacked in a tube which is inserted from the breech.