Another tulwar ... to join the others

fernando · 10th December 2007, 08:21 PM

Tulwars are still crossing my way

.
This one, if i compare it to the others i have recently acquired, has a much slimmer ( not shorter ) grip.
It also has a rather curved blade. This one is quite narrow at the forte, although reasonably thick.
The handle had some repair, apparently in the period, resulting that the disc and dome became a bit loose from the fixing rivets.
Also this is the first time i have a tulwar with the handle fixed with one pin, besides the usual resin; does this define the geographic origin of this piece ?
Coments will be wellcome.
Thanks
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2007, 10:13 PM

Hi Fernando,
Another tulwar!! fantastic

This one is really nice and as I always note, my favorite, as these beautifully worn and patinated examples are pure history. While I cannot think of the particulars on the narrow crossguard quillons and the long thin grip, I believe they represent earlier tulwar hilt structure. The patination and sword overall give me the impression of an 18th century example. The blade in great, and the deep parabolic curve and heavy tip seem to correspond to early Central Asian blades.
I am hoping to hear more on the possibilities of the long, thin grip on this. I recall the many discussions here concerning the size of the grips are Indian swords being so confining with emphasis on Indian hands being smaller. This one seems to exceed the usual grip size.
Another great puzzle on tulwars is of course, trying to establish any consistancy with the variations of the standard hilt form, and the presence of knuckleguard on some and not others, as to region or period. As far as I can determine, the 'open hilt' such as this example, does not seem confined to a particular region, though it does seem that knuckleguarded hilts are more often of 19th century.
I would very much like to hear other opinions on the thin, long grip and thoughts on the open hilts on tulwars vs. the knuckleguard hilts.

All very best regards,
Jim

katana · 11th December 2007, 11:07 AM

Hi Fernando,
thats a very nice Tulwar, love the curve of the blade....would this be considered a Shamshir, even though the blade is a little wider (at the tip) than normal ? The hilt certainly looks more 'user friendly' for 'larger' hands .... Congrats

Kind Regards David

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2007, 02:56 PM

Hi Fernando,

Your ’new’ tulwar is from Sind. The cuplike disc, the very slim grip, hardly without a belly, the small rather thin dropping quillons, the rather long, but thin langets and the rope like design at the both ends of the grip. One or more of these things can be missing, but on your hilt they are all there

.

Jens

fernando · 11th December 2007, 08:42 PM

Thanks a lot for your comprehensive input, Jim.
Besides your keen geographical positioning of this piece, i am pleased with your observation that it looks to be from the XVIII century, a vital element for my collecting tastes.
An interesting particular abouth the handle dimensions, and this also replying to David's kind posting, is that in fact its actual length is not longer than the usual. It's the grip slimness, together with the wider angle of the droping quillons, that makes it having a different aspect and, why not, a bit more room for the fist, thus becoming more "user friendly".
Thanks a lot for both your postings.
Fernando

fernando · 11th December 2007, 08:52 PM

Hi Jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Fernando,

Your ’new’ tulwar is from Sind. The cuplike disc, the very slim grip, hardly without a belly, the small rather thin dropping quillons, the rather long, but thin langets and the rope like design at the both ends of the grip. One or more of these things can be missing, but on your hilt they are all there

.

Jens

So much obliged

I am deeply glad for having this piece identified

I consider your posting a Christmas gift

Would you agree with Jim that this is from the 18th century ?
Thanks again
Fernando

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2007, 09:38 PM

Fernando,
Yes, i can agree to Jim's suggestion - although I would say late 18th, or maybe early 19th century. It would help if you could provide a close up of the blade where it shows something blank, as I am not quite sure waht it is.
Nice tulwar anyway, and one of the few, which can be pin pointed

.
Jens

katana · 12th December 2007, 12:17 PM

Hi Fernando,
could you post a clear close-up picture of the blade ( the clean section). When I 'enhanced' and enlarged the blade picture....there seemed to be 'signs' of patterning, it could be an effect caused by the enlargement ... but ...it looks alittle like wootz.
It might be worth doing a light etch on the 'clean' section ....just in case

Kind Regards David

fernando · 12th December 2007, 03:13 PM

Thank you Jens.
I will take note on the age.
This is what i could capture, with day light and strong sun shining ... a frequent event over here, even diring winter

. These blank parts could be because they were oiled or greased more than the rest, so they didn't oxide ... i don't really know

I will anxiously wait for your coments.

Thank you David.
I don't think there's any steel activity like wootz or the like, in this blade

Will these pictures define the situation to your eyes ?
Please tell

Fernando

roshan · 22nd December 2007, 03:46 PM

I found this thread in the old forum:

www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002253.html

The hilt of the tulwar looks similar to the one posted above... Is this tulwar also from Sindh?

10th December 2007, 08:21 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Another tulwar ... to join the others Tulwars are still crossing my way . This one, if i compare it to the others i have recently acquired, has a much slimmer ( not shorter ) grip. It also has a rather curved blade. This one is quite narrow at the forte, although reasonably thick. The handle had some repair, apparently in the period, resulting that the disc and dome became a bit loose from the fixing rivets. Also this is the first time i have a tulwar with the handle fixed with one pin, besides the usual resin; does this define the geographic origin of this piece ? Coments will be wellcome. Thanks Fernando Attached Images

11th December 2007, 02:56 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Fernando, Your ’new’ tulwar is from Sind. The cuplike disc, the very slim grip, hardly without a belly, the small rather thin dropping quillons, the rather long, but thin langets and the rope like design at the both ends of the grip. One or more of these things can be missing, but on your hilt they are all there. Jens

11th December 2007, 09:38 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Fernando, Yes, i can agree to Jim's suggestion - although I would say late 18th, or maybe early 19th century. It would help if you could provide a close up of the blade where it shows something blank, as I am not quite sure waht it is. Nice tulwar anyway, and one of the few, which can be pin pointed. Jens

12th December 2007, 03:13 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you Jens. I will take note on the age. This is what i could capture, with day light and strong sun shining ... a frequent event over here, even diring winter . These blank parts could be because they were oiled or greased more than the rest, so they didn't oxide ... i don't really know I will anxiously wait for your coments. Thank you David. I don't think there's any steel activity like wootz or the like, in this blade Will these pictures define the situation to your eyes ? Please tell Fernando Attached Images

10th December 2007, 10:13 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,748	Hi Fernando, Another tulwar!! fantastic This one is really nice and as I always note, my favorite, as these beautifully worn and patinated examples are pure history. While I cannot think of the particulars on the narrow crossguard quillons and the long thin grip, I believe they represent earlier tulwar hilt structure. The patination and sword overall give me the impression of an 18th century example. The blade in great, and the deep parabolic curve and heavy tip seem to correspond to early Central Asian blades. I am hoping to hear more on the possibilities of the long, thin grip on this. I recall the many discussions here concerning the size of the grips are Indian swords being so confining with emphasis on Indian hands being smaller. This one seems to exceed the usual grip size. Another great puzzle on tulwars is of course, trying to establish any consistancy with the variations of the standard hilt form, and the presence of knuckleguard on some and not others, as to region or period. As far as I can determine, the 'open hilt' such as this example, does not seem confined to a particular region, though it does seem that knuckleguarded hilts are more often of 19th century. I would very much like to hear other opinions on the thin, long grip and thoughts on the open hilts on tulwars vs. the knuckleguard hilts. All very best regards, Jim

11th December 2007, 11:07 AM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, thats a very nice Tulwar, love the curve of the blade....would this be considered a Shamshir, even though the blade is a little wider (at the tip) than normal ? The hilt certainly looks more 'user friendly' for 'larger' hands .... Congrats Kind Regards David

11th December 2007, 08:42 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thanks a lot for your comprehensive input, Jim. Besides your keen geographical positioning of this piece, i am pleased with your observation that it looks to be from the XVIII century, a vital element for my collecting tastes. An interesting particular abouth the handle dimensions, and this also replying to David's kind posting, is that in fact its actual length is not longer than the usual. It's the grip slimness, together with the wider angle of the droping quillons, that makes it having a different aspect and, why not, a bit more room for the fist, thus becoming more "user friendly". Thanks a lot for both your postings. Fernando

12th December 2007, 12:17 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, could you post a clear close-up picture of the blade ( the clean section). When I 'enhanced' and enlarged the blade picture....there seemed to be 'signs' of patterning, it could be an effect caused by the enlargement ... but ...it looks alittle like wootz. It might be worth doing a light etch on the 'clean' section ....just in case Kind Regards David

22nd December 2007, 03:46 PM	#10
roshan Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 20	I found this thread in the old forum: www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002253.html The hilt of the tulwar looks similar to the one posted above... Is this tulwar also from Sindh?