Unbelievable mega koummya help please

Justin · 13th March 2005, 09:16 PM

Got this guy recently and what I thought was a nice koummya dagger turned out to be more of a short sword,the hilt and scabbard are brass with thin silver sheet soldered over the brass{you can see both on the pics of the back side} ricasso has engraved brass sheet on it.Hilt set with blue and red glass{not nearly as brightly colored as in pics}.Blade is thick and sturdy although it isnt sharpened my theory is that it is for some parade or ceremonial use its far too well made to be a tourist piece{atleast thats my humble opinion}.Not too many signs of age but I wouldnt be shocked if it was made around the early 1900s.Any comments or thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Freddy · 16th March 2005, 06:24 PM

Hi Justin,

I found a similar dagger in the book 'African Arms and Armour' by Christopher Spring. There's a picture of this type of 'koummya' on page 25.

This is what he wrote about these daggers :

The 'ear daggers', which became briefly popular in sixteenth century Europe, are so-called because of the two splayed discs which form their pommels, and may possibly be related to the koummya through models which were produced in the Hispano-Moorish civilisation. Unfortunately, such a link is never likely to be established beyond doubt because, surprisingly enough, only a few ornate swords survive from this period which spans some seven hundred years from the ninth to the fifteenth century AD. Further possible evidence of the exchange of designs and ideas may be seen in the hilt of the cinquedea dagger which was as essential a part of the dress of a well-to-do man in Renaissance Italy as the janbiyya is in the Arab world today. Although different in almost every other respect, the pommel of the koummya and the cinquedea are extraordinarily similar. While this does not prove a connection, the ressemblance of both to the hilts of certain weapons from bronze Age Luristan cannot be ignored.

The 'koummya' Spring shows in his book measures about 41 cm (16,4 inches). It has the same shape of hilt and even the same decoration on the sheath as yours.

He writes that it is found in a number of variant forms in the Sous region and the Atlas mountains of Southern Morocco.

All by all a very nice dagger. I like the decoration on the blade near the hilt.

Justin · 16th March 2005, 10:56 PM

Thanks Freddy.I definately think he is right about a connection between the cinqueda and koummya.A lot of Medditerranean{Im sure I butchered the spelling on that one} weapons seem to be similar to Moroccan/North African knives and swords but its not surprising considering the short distance between Spain and Morocco at the straight of Gibralter.

Conogre · 18th March 2005, 06:29 PM

I think I'd tend to disagree with the cinqueda comparison if for no other reason than the N. african knives that were being dated as recent because hilts had the same shape as the German WWII daggers.
I've got a similar piece that's far less ornate, although also silver that does have a sharp blade and appears to be a user knife...although non-jeweled, it's of a similar size and also has the large "pyramids" in the hilt and sheath that look like they would make for an uncomfortable grip yet seem to have exactly the opposite effect.
Artzi gave me another name for them once that had something to do with the pommel shape being the same as the large Napoleanic hats.....actually, if you consider his route and the "pyramids" they may well have been designed in honor of or even by Napolean himself.
Granted, it's a stretch, but I would think well within the realm of possibility, particularly if you consider his reputed ego.
Yours strikes me as a presentation piece, to be honest with you, for while it's flamboyant it stops short of gaudy as is often the case with jeweled daggers from the region and manages to hold a somewhat elegant look to it, at least in my humble opinion......from the scabbard rings to the back it seems to miss the typical tourist trademarks or give-aways by a fair margin.
In case you haven't picked up on it, I think you picked up quite a nice piece there....congratulations.
Mike

13th March 2005, 09:16 PM	#1
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Unbelievable mega koummya help please Got this guy recently and what I thought was a nice koummya dagger turned out to be more of a short sword,the hilt and scabbard are brass with thin silver sheet soldered over the brass{you can see both on the pics of the back side} ricasso has engraved brass sheet on it.Hilt set with blue and red glass{not nearly as brightly colored as in pics}.Blade is thick and sturdy although it isnt sharpened my theory is that it is for some parade or ceremonial use its far too well made to be a tourist piece{atleast thats my humble opinion}.Not too many signs of age but I wouldnt be shocked if it was made around the early 1900s.Any comments or thoughts are greatly appreciated. Attached Images

16th March 2005, 06:24 PM	#2
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	nice ! Hi Justin, I found a similar dagger in the book 'African Arms and Armour' by Christopher Spring. There's a picture of this type of 'koummya' on page 25. This is what he wrote about these daggers : The 'ear daggers', which became briefly popular in sixteenth century Europe, are so-called because of the two splayed discs which form their pommels, and may possibly be related to the koummya through models which were produced in the Hispano-Moorish civilisation. Unfortunately, such a link is never likely to be established beyond doubt because, surprisingly enough, only a few ornate swords survive from this period which spans some seven hundred years from the ninth to the fifteenth century AD. Further possible evidence of the exchange of designs and ideas may be seen in the hilt of the cinquedea dagger which was as essential a part of the dress of a well-to-do man in Renaissance Italy as the janbiyya is in the Arab world today. Although different in almost every other respect, the pommel of the koummya and the cinquedea are extraordinarily similar. While this does not prove a connection, the ressemblance of both to the hilts of certain weapons from bronze Age Luristan cannot be ignored. The 'koummya' Spring shows in his book measures about 41 cm (16,4 inches). It has the same shape of hilt and even the same decoration on the sheath as yours. He writes that it is found in a number of variant forms in the Sous region and the Atlas mountains of Southern Morocco. All by all a very nice dagger. I like the decoration on the blade near the hilt.

16th March 2005, 10:56 PM	#3
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Thanks Freddy.I definately think he is right about a connection between the cinqueda and koummya.A lot of Medditerranean{Im sure I butchered the spelling on that one} weapons seem to be similar to Moroccan/North African knives and swords but its not surprising considering the short distance between Spain and Morocco at the straight of Gibralter.

18th March 2005, 06:29 PM	#4
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I think I'd tend to disagree with the cinqueda comparison if for no other reason than the N. african knives that were being dated as recent because hilts had the same shape as the German WWII daggers. I've got a similar piece that's far less ornate, although also silver that does have a sharp blade and appears to be a user knife...although non-jeweled, it's of a similar size and also has the large "pyramids" in the hilt and sheath that look like they would make for an uncomfortable grip yet seem to have exactly the opposite effect. Artzi gave me another name for them once that had something to do with the pommel shape being the same as the large Napoleanic hats.....actually, if you consider his route and the "pyramids" they may well have been designed in honor of or even by Napolean himself. Granted, it's a stretch, but I would think well within the realm of possibility, particularly if you consider his reputed ego. Yours strikes me as a presentation piece, to be honest with you, for while it's flamboyant it stops short of gaudy as is often the case with jeweled daggers from the region and manages to hold a somewhat elegant look to it, at least in my humble opinion......from the scabbard rings to the back it seems to miss the typical tourist trademarks or give-aways by a fair margin. In case you haven't picked up on it, I think you picked up quite a nice piece there....congratulations. Mike