Barong restoration suggestion...

Spunjer · 15th December 2004, 01:51 PM

i have a barong that, well, looks great. the only thing that's distracting the over all picture is the part where the handle connects to blade. it's not ovbious if i intend to just display it on the wall, but i'd really like to care of this wonderful piece, and that includes making sure everything is in tiptop shape.

the blade is still securely attached to the handle; there is no play at all. the only thing is, it look rotted where it meets. also, i'm worried that moisture might get in and further weakens the connection. my questions are:

a) how do i prevent it from rotting even further, and
b) how do restore this gap?

can i fill it up with some type of clay or is there anything i can buy over the 'net to remedy this problem? please note that my woodworking skills is between negative one and zero. it goes up to one when it's life threatening.

battara, i would love to ask for your service on this but i understand that you're very busy at the moment, and also, i figure sooner or later, i will have to learn this kinda stuff

Lew · 15th December 2004, 03:50 PM

Hi Spunjer

There is a epoxy puddy you can buy in Home Depot it comes in a clear plastic tube. It is tan in color for wood or black for metal use. You just knead it like clay and press it into the gap of the ferrule smooth out the top and it hardens in about an hour or so. I have used it myself to repair an old barong and a dha sword it works nicely. I would use the tan one it can be stained after it dries to match the wood.

Lew

Spunjer · 15th December 2004, 03:52 PM

is it paintable and waterproof?

Lew · 15th December 2004, 04:16 PM

Yes it can be stained to match the wood and it is waterproof it hardens like epoxy.

Federico · 15th December 2004, 05:06 PM

Instead of permanent epoxy, why not just refill with pitch. Color will be right, and its more traditional. Plus it can be repaired later on.

zelbone · 15th December 2004, 05:52 PM

Hey Spunger, nice barong. The only way to really fix that is to pop the hilt off, straighten the punto, and then carved the little wood shims that fit between the punto and the blade. That's if you want to do it the correct traditional way. I'm sure Battara would agree with me about that.

BUT...

As Lew mentions, the wood epoxy putty works pretty good and is a lot easier than than carving those anoying little shims. Plus, you can stain them to whatever color you like.

Here's some photos of a barong restoration I did about a year ago. Shelley and I were at a collectors arms show here and this seller sold me this little talibon, a dagger from Luzon, and this junked barong for about the price of a carton on smokes and a few six packs (i.e. dirt cheap

) The barong was in such sad shape that Shelley passed it up. I couldn't refuse. Anyways, the hilt was off and there was a huge chunk of wood missing from the side of the hilt, the wrapping was mostly gone, and a little chunk of wood missing from the beak of the kakatua. The only redeeming quality of the barong was the blade...it was covered in cosmoline and it had a complete scabbard (which also needed work.) I took it home cleaned off the cosmoline and then etched the blade to find a wonderful damascus pattern. I then decided that since this is going to be a total restoration of the hilt or rebuild, I didn't care too much about traditional methods and opted for modern conveniences. It wasn't a datu class junggayan hilt, but your ordinary fighting barong. So here are some pics of the stages of restoration. The first pic is the hilt off the blade with some epoxy putty I used to build up the missing chunk of wood. The second pic is fitting the hilt onto the blade to size things up. The third photo is adding more epoxy putty to build up the grip area. The last photo is the grip area filed down and sanded into shape

zelbone · 15th December 2004, 05:55 PM

The next set of photos shows more work on the punto. The first phot show how mangled the punto is. The second photo shows me straightening out the punto on a miniature anvil I have with a tiny ball peen hammer...I got both of these at a gunshow awhile back. The last photo shows the somewhat better rounded punto on the hilt.

zelbone · 15th December 2004, 06:01 PM

These two photos show how I jigged up the blade and hilt for gluing. I used a putty type epoxy here as well, but the darker stuff for metal. I used one of those squeeze clamps to hold the blade in place to the hilt. I then clamped this upright on my little B&D workmate. This way the epoxy would seep out even though it was a putty form. Worked great.

zelbone · 15th December 2004, 06:10 PM

This is the part that will interest you, Spunger. Once the blade is firmly glued into the hilt. I taped off the punto and the blade with some masking tape. This is so the putty wouldn't get onto the outside of the punto and on the blade. I then added some putty into this gap between the punto and the blade. Use a putty knife to smooth it out. I also had this jigged up just like before when I was gluing the blade to the hilt to keep it pretty level. Once the putty sets, sand down the putty to your liking. It's probably safer to leave the masking tape on until your done sanding. Once your done, remove the tape and do whatever sanding is necessary...I did more final sanding to the hilt.

zelbone · 15th December 2004, 06:21 PM

Finally, add your finishing touches. For this barong. I first did a single layer wrap with hemp. For added grip, I added a second layer of braided hemp in short sections. I would have done it the way the do this in Sulu, but I can't figure it out and is way too complicated. I could have asked my father, but it's been a long time for him do something like this. The next photo shows me laquering the hemp grip. Traditionally, you would use pitch, but since I decided to use modern methods from the beginning, I mixed up some clear laquer (believe it or not its the Testors model airplane stuff you get at hobby store) mixed with some black pigment (I used this India ink I had laying around in an old calligraphy set...HEY IT WORKED

!) The laquer also helps bind the fibers of the hemp together and seals it. Finally, the last step was to stain the wood putty in the punto. I chose a dark stain...I forgot what color it was...I think rosewood. Looks real enough to me. The last photo is the completed barong. I wish I took a better pic of it. See...it wasn't that hard to do.

MABAGANI · 15th December 2004, 06:07 PM

You could round out the ferrule edge by working a rod from the inside before you decide on pitch or epoxy. Pitch is traditional and easier take back out, also it gives when its ready to be changed again and good since the blade is still secure as opposed to hard epoxy. Clean and remove loose particles to get a better bond. I prefer the gel type epoxy on my practice swords but you only get one chance on the set. With the gel or putty you can buy a stain made for epoxy that you mix in before applying. Cover the blade and ferrule with tape when you're ready for the pitch/epoxy, keeps glue where you want it and makes for a neat clean up, if you over fill it you can still go back and sand it the desired shape, if you under fill it you can add another layer.

MABAGANI · 15th December 2004, 09:50 PM

Take something hard and round, like a small phillips or thick nail and slowly work the ferrule edge round. I'd tape everything up hilt, blade and edge to protect all the parts and just in case the sword wants to bite you...

Federico · 15th December 2004, 10:00 PM

You can get pitch from any silver smithing shop. Just heat a knife, will melt the pitch and you can spread it in like butter. Should cool tacky in just a bit.

Spunjer · 15th December 2004, 10:25 PM

thx federico. i'll post pics when it's all said and done...

mabagani,
will definitely try that. as you can see, i treat these sandatas very well

zelbone · 16th December 2004, 05:12 PM

Good luck on your barong restoration, Spunger. Your old junggayan is still really nice and as Federico and Mabagani suggested pitch would be the best option and is quite simple to do. The barong I did the restoration on I knew would be swung around and used so I wanted the hilt to be really secure. Also, the hilt was pretty trashed under the wrapping and punto, but I wanted to salvage as much as I can. That was pretty much an extreme restoration. I didn't expect you to go to those extremes, but I wanted to give you an idea that it's still possible to salvage even a beat up hilt. In the end, that barong turned out pretty nice and is probably one of the best handling barongs I've swung around. I know the present caretaker of that barong is extremely happy with it and has done several cutting tests where it performed flawlessly. Again, good luck with that junggayan

.

Federico · 16th December 2004, 06:56 PM

One thing I have done on swords that will be used for hard practice, has been to do a pitch plug on the end. Essentially the sword will be held in place with a strong modern epoxy, but for aesthetics, I leave about a 1/4" room at the joint which I then fill with pitch for looks.

Spunjer · 16th December 2004, 08:29 PM

zel and federico,
will the pitch hold the hilt in place? i can actually spin the hilt around so evidently it's no longer attached to the handle (wood shrinkage, maybe?). can i use something like superglue to hold it in place then add the pitch on top of that, or will the pitch take care of it?

ibeam · 16th December 2004, 08:53 PM

Good luck Spunjer on your resto project.

Nice job Zel on the restoration.

Have you or anyone done any Plume or Beak Restoration on the kakatua pommel on a barung? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated?

Spunjer · 16th December 2004, 09:05 PM

battara is the man...

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002259.html

Federico · 16th December 2004, 09:18 PM

Spunjer, what are you planning on using your barong for? Practice or display or collection? Pitch alone (if you removed the loose hilt, cleaned of loose particles, and re-filled) is a good enough adhessive. For security, for practice swords, as I noted in my post above, I have used epoxy (such as JB weld) and left a small gap for pitch to be placed so that superficially it will appear like it is held by pitch. I would not recommend superglue to fill any large cavity. A slower drying 2 part epoxy would probably work best. I prefer JB weld myself, but the drawback is that mistakes cannot be corrected as it can only be removed mechanically (eg. breaking the hilt).

Ibeam the only real cockatua restoration would be to recarve the cockatua down or to replace it completely. I would not suggest tacking on a new crest or beak, as there would a number of problems.

A. finding the banati would in the first place is difficult,
B. finding banati of similar grain and color
C. hiding the joint

One could try staining to hide, but as the wood ages, the contrast would become apparant. Ironically ivory is easier to do this with, as joint lines can often be mistaken as stress cracking. But, with wood, I really havent seen anyone add pieces that werent obvious replacements. The only thing I could think of, if you really want a bigger cockatua, perhaps add silver tips (eg. beak and crest) to the cockatua. Jose/Battara could probably whip something amazing up.

15th December 2004, 01:51 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Barong restoration suggestion... i have a barong that, well, looks great. the only thing that's distracting the over all picture is the part where the handle connects to blade. it's not ovbious if i intend to just display it on the wall, but i'd really like to care of this wonderful piece, and that includes making sure everything is in tiptop shape. the blade is still securely attached to the handle; there is no play at all. the only thing is, it look rotted where it meets. also, i'm worried that moisture might get in and further weakens the connection. my questions are: a) how do i prevent it from rotting even further, and b) how do restore this gap? can i fill it up with some type of clay or is there anything i can buy over the 'net to remedy this problem? please note that my woodworking skills is between negative one and zero. it goes up to one when it's life threatening. battara, i would love to ask for your service on this but i understand that you're very busy at the moment, and also, i figure sooner or later, i will have to learn this kinda stuff Attached Images

15th December 2004, 03:50 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Spunjer There is a epoxy puddy you can buy in Home Depot it comes in a clear plastic tube. It is tan in color for wood or black for metal use. You just knead it like clay and press it into the gap of the ferrule smooth out the top and it hardens in about an hour or so. I have used it myself to repair an old barong and a dha sword it works nicely. I would use the tan one it can be stained after it dries to match the wood. Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 15th December 2004 at 04:12 PM.

15th December 2004, 05:52 PM	#6
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Restoration of trashed barong Hey Spunger, nice barong. The only way to really fix that is to pop the hilt off, straighten the punto, and then carved the little wood shims that fit between the punto and the blade. That's if you want to do it the correct traditional way. I'm sure Battara would agree with me about that. BUT... As Lew mentions, the wood epoxy putty works pretty good and is a lot easier than than carving those anoying little shims. Plus, you can stain them to whatever color you like. Here's some photos of a barong restoration I did about a year ago. Shelley and I were at a collectors arms show here and this seller sold me this little talibon, a dagger from Luzon, and this junked barong for about the price of a carton on smokes and a few six packs (i.e. dirt cheap ) The barong was in such sad shape that Shelley passed it up. I couldn't refuse. Anyways, the hilt was off and there was a huge chunk of wood missing from the side of the hilt, the wrapping was mostly gone, and a little chunk of wood missing from the beak of the kakatua. The only redeeming quality of the barong was the blade...it was covered in cosmoline and it had a complete scabbard (which also needed work.) I took it home cleaned off the cosmoline and then etched the blade to find a wonderful damascus pattern. I then decided that since this is going to be a total restoration of the hilt or rebuild, I didn't care too much about traditional methods and opted for modern conveniences. It wasn't a datu class junggayan hilt, but your ordinary fighting barong. So here are some pics of the stages of restoration. The first pic is the hilt off the blade with some epoxy putty I used to build up the missing chunk of wood. The second pic is fitting the hilt onto the blade to size things up. The third photo is adding more epoxy putty to build up the grip area. The last photo is the grip area filed down and sanded into shape Attached Images

15th December 2004, 05:55 PM	#7
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	The next set of photos shows more work on the punto. The first phot show how mangled the punto is. The second photo shows me straightening out the punto on a miniature anvil I have with a tiny ball peen hammer...I got both of these at a gunshow awhile back. The last photo shows the somewhat better rounded punto on the hilt. Attached Images

15th December 2004, 06:01 PM	#8
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	These two photos show how I jigged up the blade and hilt for gluing. I used a putty type epoxy here as well, but the darker stuff for metal. I used one of those squeeze clamps to hold the blade in place to the hilt. I then clamped this upright on my little B&D workmate. This way the epoxy would seep out even though it was a putty form. Worked great. Attached Images

15th December 2004, 03:52 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	is it paintable and waterproof?

15th December 2004, 04:16 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Yes it can be stained to match the wood and it is waterproof it hardens like epoxy.

15th December 2004, 05:06 PM	#5
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Instead of permanent epoxy, why not just refill with pitch. Color will be right, and its more traditional. Plus it can be repaired later on.

15th December 2004, 06:10 PM	#9
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	This is the part that will interest you, Spunger. Once the blade is firmly glued into the hilt. I taped off the punto and the blade with some masking tape. This is so the putty wouldn't get onto the outside of the punto and on the blade. I then added some putty into this gap between the punto and the blade. Use a putty knife to smooth it out. I also had this jigged up just like before when I was gluing the blade to the hilt to keep it pretty level. Once the putty sets, sand down the putty to your liking. It's probably safer to leave the masking tape on until your done sanding. Once your done, remove the tape and do whatever sanding is necessary...I did more final sanding to the hilt. Attached Images

15th December 2004, 06:21 PM	#10
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Finally, add your finishing touches. For this barong. I first did a single layer wrap with hemp. For added grip, I added a second layer of braided hemp in short sections. I would have done it the way the do this in Sulu, but I can't figure it out and is way too complicated. I could have asked my father, but it's been a long time for him do something like this. The next photo shows me laquering the hemp grip. Traditionally, you would use pitch, but since I decided to use modern methods from the beginning, I mixed up some clear laquer (believe it or not its the Testors model airplane stuff you get at hobby store) mixed with some black pigment (I used this India ink I had laying around in an old calligraphy set...HEY IT WORKED !) The laquer also helps bind the fibers of the hemp together and seals it. Finally, the last step was to stain the wood putty in the punto. I chose a dark stain...I forgot what color it was...I think rosewood. Looks real enough to me. The last photo is the completed barong. I wish I took a better pic of it. See...it wasn't that hard to do. Attached Images

15th December 2004, 06:07 PM	#11
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	You could round out the ferrule edge by working a rod from the inside before you decide on pitch or epoxy. Pitch is traditional and easier take back out, also it gives when its ready to be changed again and good since the blade is still secure as opposed to hard epoxy. Clean and remove loose particles to get a better bond. I prefer the gel type epoxy on my practice swords but you only get one chance on the set. With the gel or putty you can buy a stain made for epoxy that you mix in before applying. Cover the blade and ferrule with tape when you're ready for the pitch/epoxy, keeps glue where you want it and makes for a neat clean up, if you over fill it you can still go back and sand it the desired shape, if you under fill it you can add another layer.

15th December 2004, 09:50 PM	#12
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Take something hard and round, like a small phillips or thick nail and slowly work the ferrule edge round. I'd tape everything up hilt, blade and edge to protect all the parts and just in case the sword wants to bite you...

15th December 2004, 10:00 PM	#13
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	You can get pitch from any silver smithing shop. Just heat a knife, will melt the pitch and you can spread it in like butter. Should cool tacky in just a bit.

15th December 2004, 10:25 PM	#14
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thx federico. i'll post pics when it's all said and done... mabagani, will definitely try that. as you can see, i treat these sandatas very well Last edited by Spunjer; 16th December 2004 at 02:19 AM.

16th December 2004, 05:12 PM	#15
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Good luck on your barong restoration, Spunger. Your old junggayan is still really nice and as Federico and Mabagani suggested pitch would be the best option and is quite simple to do. The barong I did the restoration on I knew would be swung around and used so I wanted the hilt to be really secure. Also, the hilt was pretty trashed under the wrapping and punto, but I wanted to salvage as much as I can. That was pretty much an extreme restoration. I didn't expect you to go to those extremes, but I wanted to give you an idea that it's still possible to salvage even a beat up hilt. In the end, that barong turned out pretty nice and is probably one of the best handling barongs I've swung around. I know the present caretaker of that barong is extremely happy with it and has done several cutting tests where it performed flawlessly. Again, good luck with that junggayan .

16th December 2004, 06:56 PM	#16
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	One thing I have done on swords that will be used for hard practice, has been to do a pitch plug on the end. Essentially the sword will be held in place with a strong modern epoxy, but for aesthetics, I leave about a 1/4" room at the joint which I then fill with pitch for looks.

16th December 2004, 08:29 PM	#17
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	zel and federico, will the pitch hold the hilt in place? i can actually spin the hilt around so evidently it's no longer attached to the handle (wood shrinkage, maybe?). can i use something like superglue to hold it in place then add the pitch on top of that, or will the pitch take care of it?

16th December 2004, 08:53 PM	#18
ibeam Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 134	Repair Good luck Spunjer on your resto project. Nice job Zel on the restoration. Have you or anyone done any Plume or Beak Restoration on the kakatua pommel on a barung? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated? Attached Images

16th December 2004, 09:05 PM	#19
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	battara is the man... http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002259.html

16th December 2004, 09:18 PM	#20
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Spunjer, what are you planning on using your barong for? Practice or display or collection? Pitch alone (if you removed the loose hilt, cleaned of loose particles, and re-filled) is a good enough adhessive. For security, for practice swords, as I noted in my post above, I have used epoxy (such as JB weld) and left a small gap for pitch to be placed so that superficially it will appear like it is held by pitch. I would not recommend superglue to fill any large cavity. A slower drying 2 part epoxy would probably work best. I prefer JB weld myself, but the drawback is that mistakes cannot be corrected as it can only be removed mechanically (eg. breaking the hilt). Ibeam the only real cockatua restoration would be to recarve the cockatua down or to replace it completely. I would not suggest tacking on a new crest or beak, as there would a number of problems. A. finding the banati would in the first place is difficult, B. finding banati of similar grain and color C. hiding the joint One could try staining to hide, but as the wood ages, the contrast would become apparant. Ironically ivory is easier to do this with, as joint lines can often be mistaken as stress cracking. But, with wood, I really havent seen anyone add pieces that werent obvious replacements. The only thing I could think of, if you really want a bigger cockatua, perhaps add silver tips (eg. beak and crest) to the cockatua. Jose/Battara could probably whip something amazing up.