Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 31st January 2021, 12:47 AM   #1
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,412
Default

Kubur,

Edgerton also has an example of a sainti. If you have a copy of his book, it is illustrated in Plate X, no. 557. Here is what he says about No. 557:
"PARRYING SHIELD; "Sainti;" consisting of a ringed shaft of steel, 22 inches in length, which is held in the middle; the grip is protected by a padded basket of steel, from the centre of which projects a small dagger. Vizianagram. (Pl. X., No. 557) (8452-'55.)
This weapon was introduced into Spain by the Arabs, an example of it is found in the Armeria Real de Madrid, dating from the 15th century."
The illustration that accompanies this text most closely resembles the picture you show with a straight bar, a D-guard and a small dagger protruding from the latter. The examples you show with blades at either end of the bar are, I understand, widely called haladie. The lance-like item you show, with a central D-guard, does not seem to fit either a sainti or a haladie, and may well have another name.

Ian.

Last edited by Ian; 31st January 2021 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Spelling
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2021, 06:25 AM   #2
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,230
Default

The spear one with knuckle guard reminds me of the Zulu Ik'lwa which is used with a large shield as a thrusting weapon, much like a Roman legionary's gladius. The knuckle guard and all steel construction would be an evolutionary bonus. Shaka and Julius would, I have little doubt, love it.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2021, 10:53 AM   #3
Peter Andeweg
Member
 
Peter Andeweg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands
Posts: 71
Default

Hi Kubur,
Saintie are very rare. I sold one example in 2020. Here is the link with some additional info.
https://antiquesbythesea.com/product...rying-saintie/

(If that is okay with admin)

Regards, Peter
Peter Andeweg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2021, 12:46 PM   #4
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Andeweg
Hi Kubur,
Saintie are very rare. I sold one example in 2020. Here is the link with some additional info.
https://antiquesbythesea.com/product...rying-saintie/

(If that is okay with admin)

Regards, Peter
Thanks Peter
Beautiful object, the blade is really like a katar, if not a katar...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2021, 12:50 PM   #5
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Kubur,

Edgerton also has an example of a sainti. If you have a copy of his book, it is illustrated in Plate X, no. 557. Here is what he says about No. 557:
"PARRYING SHIELD; "Sainti;" consisting of a ringed shaft of steel, 22 inches in length, which is held in the middle; the grip is protected by a padded basket of steel, from the centre of which projects a small dagger. Vizianagram. (Pl. X., No. 557) (8452-'55.)
This weapon was introduced into Spain by the Arabs, an example of it is found in the Armeria Real de Madrid, dating from the 15th century."
The illustration that accompanies this text most closely resembles the picture you show with a straight bar, a D-guard and a small dagger protruding from the latter. The examples you show with blades at either end of the bar are, I understand, widely called haladie. The lance-like item you show, with a central D-guard, does not seem to fit either a sainti or a haladie, and may well have another name.

Ian.
Thanks Ian
I looked again at Holstein and I found 4 pages on the sainties. In fact as Estcrh said previously, it's not a weapon but a group of weapons, same function parrying but different shapes. The short spear is one of them, Holstein said that it was used with a shield. The madu seems to be related to this family...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2021, 06:54 PM   #6
Peter Andeweg
Member
 
Peter Andeweg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands
Posts: 71
Default

It has similarities to the Katar, but the Katar is much longer and mostly has a more pronounced armor piercing tip. Its is more leaning toward a South Indian spearhead.

The 'Madu' you mentioned is described in the same group of parrying weapons in Davinder Reddy's 'Arms & Armour of India, Nepal and Sri Lanka' p. 332-333
The 'Madu' is often attributed to the region of Rajasthan, North Indian region.
Peter Andeweg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2021, 03:00 AM   #7
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,344
Default

As Peter and Kubur have well noted, the so called 'saintie' is effectively in the scope of 'parrying weapons' which have some interesting history.

In Dr. S. Haider, "Islamic Arms and Armor of Muslim India" (Lahore, 1991, p.243):

The term 'saintie' seems to derive from a short throwing spear which was used by Rajputs and carried in pairs to be thrown as spears. In this case these were called BARCHHI and were about 2'7" with about 6" head.
The Mughal version of these were termed KHISHT NEZA (SAINTHI).
These do not have the hand loop or central guard etc. but otherwise look similar......the term is what seems intriguingly key.

These lances/spears were versions of slightly longer 'SANG' and another called SELARAH (Hindu term 'sel' =lance).

It seems these had a hand loop on them in the center, but appears to have become a solid fixture in the parrying weapon derivation. It would appear that this idea derived from such a weapon which appears to have entered Spain via Arabs where the edged ends with a central shield and dagger
(adarga, al daraqa =shield) . This central shield/weapon comes further from an early Chinese parrying weapon (attached from "Weapons", Diagram Group, 1980, p.73).
Attached Images
  
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.